Please make SSF relevant and enjoyable.

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DarkDredd#2184 wrote:

In this case: GGG is not focusing on this game mode because practically nobody playing it. Why is nobody playing? Because it has severity loot dropping chance from normal mode without trade - that`s make this game mode life time job.

I can believe that SSF mode does not see a lot of activity (I recall Octavian saying in a Gamescom interview that about 15% of players were using SSF mode), and I agree that SSF play styles are heavily disincentivized (GGG's own trade manifesto from a few years back called out playing without trading as a "heavy progression penalty") but I think the reason that so few people play SSF is even mode fundamental: the trade-enabled league is the default setting, and people rarely change away from default settings, if ever.

The thing that Last Epoch did, and which PoE2 should emulate, is to change the default from trade to SSF, with the option to trade opening up later in the game. Hell, they're halfway there already, with access to the marketplace being unlocked only in act 4.

Start every player in every league with an SSF status flag set to ON, and give players with SSF=ON status access to SSF-balanced drop tables, or an additional item rarity bonus, and have that status flag flip from ON to OFF only after they start trading. That's essentially what LE does, by making players choose between the Merchant's Guild and the Circle of Fortune late in the campaign.

Maybe add an Omen of Exchange, or something, which drops in-game only for SSF=ON players and only while they're playing with other SSF=ON players, and allows them to trade with each other without flipping their status flags while active in inventory, and you have "Bro SF" set as the game's default, and no need for a separate SSF mode at all.

What I want to see, though, more than anything, is some data on this. What percentage of players who play in trade league are actually trading? We don't know, and I don't know that GGG have checked, either. It's very difficult to have an informed conversation about this without knowing the actual state of play.

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Hell, they're halfway there already, with access to the marketplace being unlocked only in act 4.

And it only makes the game worse

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Johny_Snow#4778 wrote:

"

Hell, they're halfway there already, with access to the marketplace being unlocked only in act 4.

And it only makes the game worse

Only because GGG has incentivized trade so heavily over the core gameplay loop.

The core loop of an ARPG is very simple: you kill monsters that provide the XP and loot which increase your character's power so you can kill even more and stronger monsters. Balancing the game so that you can't actually focus on the loop, and instead have take time out to role-play as the part-time manager of your own little consignment store, or to browse other players' stores like it's garage sale day or something, is the part that's out of place here.

The fact that you can't start doing that until act 4 is GGG's attempt to preserve at least part of the core gameplay loop experience, and the fact that it's necessary at all seems to me like a pretty clear indicator that they're well aware that they have a problem here. They just won't admit that the single-minded focus on trade above all else is the root of that problem.

Trade has always been a big part of Diablo 2 though, do you disagree with this? And I don't mean just trading for items but also carry runs, exp runs and so on. SSF-focused ARPGs are the Grim Dawn type - the ones which have no leagues and no always-online part. Make the difference.

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Kalerteth#1420 wrote:

Would be nice if SSF people could party with one another

Well, that wont make any sense, since its not SSF then.
I personally also playing in PLs only last few years, because i like semi-ssf expirience.
But looks like its the only option to play ssf-like with friends/spouse.

At least there are PLs available, if you use crowdfunding for them its not that expensive tho, and they are timed as regular leagues as well.

No and this has been discussed numerous times over the years. The majority of people who play SSF do not want additional loot. Horrible idea and not wanted. SSF is a knowledge check and a mode meant for more of a grind. If you want access to more loot you can play trade. Increasing the loot drops in SSF would be horrible for the game though. If they want to introduce another mode that's fine, but changing SSF isn't it.

LE is fine, but they aren't the same game, with completely different progression curves. You can't just move the mechanic over and think it would work. That's a lazy way of thinking and a good way to cause problems in your game.

If you want more loot or faster progression play trade.

I found SSF far too easy, even without the trading. And I found loot drops to be plentiful.

I also found the game has much more longevity in SSF. 1 lucky div doesn't allow me to faceroll the whole game. And picking up loot from the corpses of my enemies is much more fun than trading.

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Johny_Snow#4778 wrote:

Trade has always been a big part of Diablo 2 though, do you disagree with this? And I don't mean just trading for items but also carry runs, exp runs and so on. SSF-focused ARPGs are the Grim Dawn type - the ones which have no leagues and no always-online part. Make the difference.

I have a strong suspicion that trade wasn't as big a part of Diablo 2 as trade enjoyers think. Again, data is sparse, so there's quite a lot of guesswork involved, but it's entirely possible that the perception that things like trade and multiplayer and PvP were key to the D2 experience was more of an echo chamber effect than anything else. People who trade tend to interact with other people who trade a lot, and if everyone you're interacting with in-game is doing a thing it can be easy to come away with the impression that everybody who's playing the game is also doing that thing.

Stay with me here, because the chain of reasoning goes from PoE to D2 and back.

GGG has pulled player activity data once before that I know of, just after the Forsaken Masters league flopped hard, and what they discovered was that 96% of people playing PoE at that point were not doing anything involving another player, ever. They weren't sending or accepting party invites, and they weren't joining guilds, either. And if you think about how trade works in PoE1, that essentially means that they couldn't be trading, either, since all trade was player-to-player and there was no way to connect with another player in game unless you were partied up.

Back to Diablo 2 now, the last time we got player data out of the classic Battle Net D2 servers, D2 was averaging 19K concurrent players running 18K concurrent games on any given day... and if every game needs at least 1 player in it, that works out to 90% of players doing only solo PvE activities, very close to Forsaken Masters eta PoE's numbers. And that's on Battle Net, in a game which can be played offline, and in which all trade was player-to-player. PoE's trading system was modeled on D2's.

To me, that just looks like a genre which is overwhelmingly solo and PvE, with a very simple game play loop in trading isn't actually required at all.

And I don't it's just D2 and PoE. The makers of Last Epoch weren't going to allow trading at all, originally, and I think is why. They only changed their minds because trade enjoyers, being very social people, are also very vocal people. They're not the majority, but they're a vocal enough minority that they get disproportionately catered to.

This is why I crave data above all else: because I really want to know how player activity breaks down in PoE2 specifically.

Honestly i like how Diablo 3 deals with it, that you can party with other players and all loot is linked to the party found it.
So its basically group self found.
But i admit that that won't be the case for poe, because most people like to play poe economy simulator and farming div/hours instead actually playing the game as rpg, and the game loot is balanced around poe trade league.
All you can do is to play ssf, if you like doing things yourself rather then search for "perfect items" in trade. Or play trade if you want easy mode and fast progression.

it wont ever be relevant because its SOLO SELF FOUND