Why Punish Solo Players I think thats Horses**t

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reward those people get for walking the extra mile a solo is not walking.

Are people playing in groups because they enjoy playing in groups, or doing it to use mechanics and strategies that aren't available in solo play? Obviously over the population, the reasons will vary.

The bonus relating to this thread that is received for being in a group is not from doing anything extra. You get it automatically for just joining a group? Any extra 'miles' on the journey from playing in a group is surely a choice of the players choosing to play in a group and not a reason for the game to be unbalanced. People want to use this logic only in the direction that suits them.

My understanding is there are some difficulties in group play that may of required a bonus for groups play to keep up with solo play. If that no longer exists, and group play is now superior, the bonuses should start being reversed to restore the balance. I might add, that if you think group players are putting more effort into playing the game than solo players, you are wrong. They might have some extra vectors to think about, but that does not mean extra miles. They are not playing longer hours, and they are not necessarily spending more time theory crafting or learning, or playing more skillfully, just by the fact they are in a group. It is a different play style, sure. It is not a superior version of the game, and shouldn't be rewarded as such. Some people in this thread have got it in their head that they are doing some sort of noble work by being in a group to play, that deserves a reward.

Surely the reason to play in a group is the pleasure of playing with other people, and not a loot reward incentive of getting a leg up on people that aren't? It should be neither rewarded or punished, just balanced. Again, if it is balanced in low level groups and isn't at the top end, then GGG needs to find why that is, and implement a system that is balanced, where players can freely play grouped or solo without being gimped.

Natural benefits of group play are fine, but 4 players in a group should not be stronger than 4 players of the same skill level individually. Same goes for the difficulty of the encounters, play time etc. Grouping should not be a determining factor to those properties. Yes it is extremely hard to balance, but the starting point does need to be balance. Not a spinning wheel of fortune that gives bonuses for one playstyle over another.

I'm confused with mapping, its not the same as POE1 where you have maps 16.5 and using scarabs etc and getting currency by risking. Here you have weak atlast, weak tables, not many info about whats happening when finishig pads around the tower, whats a corrupted nexus and where you find one and alot more.

Saw some new players that dropped alot of divines in tier 1-4 maps while I get 1/30 maps tier 15/16, tried to influence waystones+rarity drop and reaching 300%+ but feels exactly the same as not having item rarity at all, high risk = same or zero currency, whats the point? Its a bug or just RNG? Feels soo bad.

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X3ntra#1479 wrote:

Saw some new players that dropped alot of divines in tier 1-4 maps while I get 1/30 maps tier 15/16, tried to influence waystones+rarity drop and reaching 300%+ but feels exactly the same as not having item rarity at all, high risk = same or zero currency, whats the point? Its a bug or just RNG? Feels soo bad.

And where exactly did those new players upload there content, so that you saw how they repeatly foudn divines on a relevant sample size?

I mean i wouldn't be surprised if someone who bought a supporter pack recently gets a hidden % boost to droprates, since they play all kinds of psychological angles in those free to play games but i can't think of a possibility to observe new players in t1-4 maps and how much divines they drop ;P

I am fascinated by the amount of excuses people can come up with before even remotely thinking it might be a knowledge issue.

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Belegur85#5784 wrote:

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reward those people get for walking the extra mile a solo is not walking.

Are people playing in groups because they enjoy playing in groups, or doing it to use mechanics and strategies that aren't available in solo play? Obviously over the population, the reasons will vary.

The bonus relating to this thread that is received for being in a group is not from doing anything extra. You get it automatically for just joining a group? Any extra 'miles' on the journey from playing in a group is surely a choice of the players choosing to play in a group and not a reason for the game to be unbalanced. People want to use this logic only in the direction that suits them.

My understanding is there are some difficulties in group play that may of required a bonus for groups play to keep up with solo play. If that no longer exists, and group play is now superior, the bonuses should start being reversed to restore the balance. I might add, that if you think group players are putting more effort into playing the game than solo players, you are wrong. They might have some extra vectors to think about, but that does not mean extra miles. They are not playing longer hours, and they are not necessarily spending more time theory crafting or learning, or playing more skillfully, just by the fact they are in a group. It is a different play style, sure. It is not a superior version of the game, and shouldn't be rewarded as such. Some people in this thread have got it in their head that they are doing some sort of noble work by being in a group to play, that deserves a reward.

If you argue like that you have to remove the downside of higher health on mobs as well. Leads to even faster groups and even without a bonus higher rewards.

You cant get to a point were 4 people in a group are getting less then people running solo. Especially not when there are items in the game that enable Aurabuilds and such.

More effort compared to a solo means builds that are only viable for playing in a group which in turn is an investment a solo is not doing. It is not the playing itself and more on that side. Yes even engaging with people means that group players are doing something a solo does not have to.

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Belegur85#5784 wrote:

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reward those people get for walking the extra mile a solo is not walking.

Surely the reason to play in a group is the pleasure of playing with other people, and not a loot reward incentive of getting a leg up on people that aren't? It should be neither rewarded or punished, just balanced. Again, if it is balanced in low level groups and isn't at the top end, then GGG needs to find why that is, and implement a system that is balanced, where players can freely play grouped or solo without being gimped.

The problem is always that you take high end as a baseline and then feel gimped. If you view it from my side and take solo as a baseline that can be improved on the result is different. I dont feel gimped because there are people out there earning god knows how much. They dont impact my game in the slightest.

Yes you can argue that they impact the economy (yes they do) and maybe even in a bad way (some stuff might be more expensive or not available without them as well) but besides uniques i can craft whatever i need myself and dont need them to sell me stuff.

In the end for me is playing in group having fun with other people first and foremost. This league my guild is kinda quiet sadly but las one out of 30 people 27 got carried by me and 2 other guys. In the end each of us would have benn better of playing solo or just with each other. Guess what: Nobody cared and was like "oh i need to rush and get more and more and more." Instead we had fun playing with those guys and helped them getting better in the game.

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Belegur85#5784 wrote:

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reward those people get for walking the extra mile a solo is not walking.

Natural benefits of group play are fine, but 4 players in a group should not be stronger than 4 players of the same skill level individually. Same goes for the difficulty of the encounters, play time etc. Grouping should not be a determining factor to those properties. Yes it is extremely hard to balance, but the starting point does need to be balance. Not a spinning wheel of fortune that gives bonuses for one playstyle over another.

Again it is you who views grouping as a baseline, not me. As said as well: 4 solo players will never be as strong as a 4 man group because the mentioned natural benefits will be always on the side of the group.

Dont get me wrong the high end needs tweaking and maybe the removal of bonus loot. Personally i could not care less if it exists or not, my fun is elsewhere.

It's very likely most have knowledge issues. Very likely. But the level of bias it takes to suggest that the high-end is somehow exempt from balance concerns, when by all metrics it is disproportionately and exponentially more rewarding, trying to constantly dismiss or reduce all valid critique to mere "excuses" isn’t a logical counterargument, it’s blatantly arguing in bad faith.

GGG wants to promote party play, that's great. It will never work for it's intended purpose exactly because the loot is shared. Factor in MF culling and party play only becomes viable for focused groups while being wet dog food for anyone else. And i hope no one here is suggesting that randoms actually split valuable loots, because i will laugh really, really hard for such clownery.

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superbomb1967#5561 wrote:

sounds like fomo

Its slightly more nuanced but fundamentally stop comparing yourself and you'll have more fun, playing in groups is garbage they are already being punished by attempting group play.

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You cant get to a point were 4 people in a group are getting less then people running solo. Especially not when there are items in the game that enable Aurabuilds and such.

You certainly can. It just depends on how it has been programmed.

For example looking on the Wiki for partying currently:

https://www.poewiki.net/wiki/Partying

The HP table indicates that in a party of 4, the mobs are not 4 times stronger in terms of HP. On non-uniques, ie, running maps, they are only 2.5-3 times as strong, depending on rarity. Given mob rarity can be highly manipulated through scarabs currently, it would be possible to get this on the lower end with magic mobs.

I also see no mention of damage increase what so ever on this page. If correct, that means group play are not needing to put any extra effort into defense, and that mobs are doing the same total damage output on enemy side, to 4 players as they would to one. That sounds astounding if true. Someone can correct if this is not the case, but I see no mention of it on the page.

Here is an example of another game, the game POE was largely inspired by, the players x function in Diablo 2. :

https://www.purediablo.com/diablo-2/diablo-2-players-x-command

If these numbers are accurate, the damage starts increasing when in a party, and at 4 players is up by 18.75%, which seems reasonable. I don't know what the value of balance should be in POE, but it would not be balanced to not have any increase when more players are added in.

There are even some cases in the game where GGG already do have mechanisms to help with the balance. Group curse limit is one, you can not stack an extra curse for each player. In other cases, you can. Aura applies to every one, so you are stacking aura benefits, without needing all players to pay the aura reservation cost.

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Yes even engaging with people means that group players are doing something a solo does not have to.

There are natural downsides and upsides to being in grouping. There is no reason to give a benefit to counteract the downsides, then arbitrage the benefits with no penalty. Group players need to take the good with the bad. It just requires a balance. It's a different playstyle. Not a condition that you are ahead of other players because you joined a group.

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The problem is always that you take high end as a baseline and then feel gimped. If you view it from my side and take solo as a baseline that can be improved on the result is different. I dont feel gimped because there are people out there earning god knows how much. They dont impact my game in the slightest.

I don't, I'm saying it should be balanced. Neither should be a base line against the other in any direction, just a level of parity. I understand, I largely play SSF. However, there are a lot of people who play the game because they are interested in the economic aspect. If it doesn't interest you or impact your enjoyment, that is great. However you can't tell others they should just ignore it and be happy. When I do play trade league, I would prefer if I'm not be disadvantaged unnecessarily when interacting with the economy. Your logic only works in the direction you are wanting it to work. By your own logic, you should not be worried if group play is balanced with solo play, because it will not effect your experience. If you are concerned about nerfs, I'm not suggesting that group play necessarily needs to be nerfed. If a balance requires solo play to be buffed, that is another solution. I just would like the option to be there for both, not being forced onto either because of efficiency. I don't want group players to be gimped either. Sometimes I do play in a group, I would not want that to feel like a waste of time if it were unbalanced in the wrong direction either. As stated, some other games force group play for efficiency. It is a terrible design, and I would not want to see that with POE. I don't think that is what they are trying to do. I just think balancing all aspects of the game is difficult, and they often have other priorities.

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In the end for me is playing in group having fun with other people first and foremost.

That is great. I'm not wanting to remove anyone's fun. Merc league showed a lot of solo players that there are many interesting aspects to group play that don't get encountered while playing solo. For me one of the best thing about the game is figuring things out. If grouping adds extra layers of things that people can interact with in the game, it is an overall positive. I think this can be achieved without having a gap between different playstyles. I think some aspects of grouping have improved in the past few years, and I would like to see grouping become even more popular. Just not being forced through efficiency. I would like to see both solo and group equally viable.

I am not very knowledge about the state of group play currently, I don't actually know how powerful it is and whether or not it need to be pulled in line at any level. I just have a strong opinion that both solo and grouped should be vaguely balanced. If farming grouped is within 2x as profitable as farming solo, I think that is fine. There is SSF mode, so if I am wanting it closer than that, the option is there for me to play without trade.

The problem comes if there is a launch code of multiple factors that all multiply together to make playing any other way relatively ineffective within the economy. Then to combat this, instead of nerfing the top end where the problems are, they run a pass over everything, which does effect players at the lower end, where there was no problem, to fix broken mechanics at the top. As some have mentioned in this thread, diminish returns is often a good system. Where it is still possible to excel beyond the pack, but it gets increasingly harder to do, the further you get away from the mean, rather than further incentifised.