Why is GGG Stopping Phrecia?

Anyone shitting on Standard ought to remember that the usual temporary leagues (Settlers being an exception) are short enough that quite a lot of casual players are not even going to reach the Atlas during them (they are not going to adjust their schedules for league starts).

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BlueTemplar85#0647 wrote:

Anyone shitting on Standard ought to remember that the usual temporary leagues (Settlers being an exception) are short enough that quite a lot of casual players are not even going to reach the Atlas during them (they are not going to adjust their schedules for league starts).

No....if players are THAT casual, they will never reach the Atlas, period. The story of this game is EASY and SHORT. Even a totally brand new player, if they like the game, can reach the end of the story in less than 24 hours of total playtime, likely 12 hours or less.

You seriously think, in the span of 3 months, even the most casual of casuals isn't spending that amount of hours? That is seriously laughable.


It's also laughable to think that casuals just starting out in the game AREN'T jumping straight into the newest or current league. Unless they have never touched a modern video game ever in their life, 99% of new players are going into the league. Every single guide and youtube video and forum post and news update steers them into it. Even the game itself steers them towards choosing the league.

In fact, Standard doesn't even show up when you create a new character right now. You actually need to scroll to the side to even see the option. That design alone tells you everything you need to know about what Standard is.

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cowmoo275#3095 wrote:

No....if players are THAT casual, they will never reach the Atlas, period.

Well yes, most players don't.

(And so what ? It's not like the campaign isn't enjoyable (especially after Act 3), especially with the extra little touches added into it in the last year or so.)

I've even recently seen someone saying that it took them a decade. (Busy parent, and I guess with a tendency to make new characters ?)

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The story of this game is EASY and SHORT.

No it isn't.
«This game has TEN acts ?!?»

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Even a totally brand new player, if they like the game, can reach the end of the story in less than 24 hours of total playtime, likely 12 hours or less.

Some concrete example please ? The numbers I have seen range between about 24 hours (for D2+3+4 veterans, with help) and about 96 hours (new to dungeon runners/zoomers, no help).
And that's for those who do finish it on their ~first character.

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You seriously think, in the span of 3 months, even the most casual of casuals isn't spending that amount of hours? That is seriously laughable.

Sure. (Even if we only count that minority of players that did ever complete the campaign.)
In fact I'm in a very similar situation right now in PoE 2 :
- My first character I stopped at the Viper at Christmas, then life happened, then Phrecia, so I've only beat her last week.
- My 2nd character is couch co-op only, we've been 'regularly' playing since release in December, but are still mid-Act 2.
(So both of them are now being played in PoE2's 'Standard'.)

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It's also laughable to think that casuals just starting out in the game AREN'T jumping straight into the newest or current league. Unless they have never touched a modern video game ever in their life, 99% of new players are going into the league.

Well this is a separate issue, but yeah, do you seriously think that seasonal mechanics are THAT common across 'modern' video games ? And that the most casual players in particular are THAT attracted to them ?

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Every single guide and youtube video and forum post and news update steers them into it.

Why do you assume they are going to look at these or even be aware of them on their first character ?

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Even the game itself steers them towards choosing the league.

Not really ? Standard also says that it's «the default game mode»
(«what even is a 'league' ?» «what is a 'fresh economy' and why should I care about it ?»),
and it's also called «Standard».

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In fact, Standard doesn't even show up when you create a new character right now. You actually need to scroll to the side to even see the option. That design alone tells you everything you need to know about what Standard is.

This has been around for 2 months out of how many ?

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BlueTemplar85#0647 wrote:

Some concrete example please ? The numbers I have seen range between about 24 hours (for D2+3+4 veterans, with help) and about 96 hours (new to dungeon runners/zoomers, no help).

lmao no... you think literally anyone is taking 10 hours PER ACT? Please stay within the bounds of reality, this isn't Reddit.

"Literally anyone" is an easy bar to clear, why are you opening yourself like this ?

« my first playthrough took 80-88 hours, it was my first time playing an arpg so i think i did pretty good »

75-80 hours in the (already 10 acts) campaign for a 2018 review of PoE1('s campaign) [7.6/0]

« Tbh I also have 70 hours and have never gotten past Act 8 XD »

« A first ever character with extra activities cannot clear the campaign in 30 hours [in 2021]»
(They're wrong, and 'extra activities' is doing a lot of work here, but this is an example of the experience of some players : my guess here that it's the kind of player that is going to try to fully clear all campaign areas and league mechanics (and lore monologues) : I had the same mindset when starting out, and it's actually fun for some of the new players.)

And lets not forget about people with shitty computers / network :
« Looks at my 76 hour playtime and just now barely getting to endgame and sweats. Thinking about all the p**n that was watched during loading times »

(Remember how PoE1 used to be designed to be playable on an 'everyday laptop', even one with a (recent) integrated graphic card ?)

« I'm one of those who takes ages to get through the basics, I felt I finally did some progress when I got to the 2nd Act... Although I did say to myself "Wait, that was it?", since before getting to Act 2 I tried some characters and spent like 20 hours total without getting halfway through Act 1, I'm that slow »
So yeah, you shouldn't expect a first time player to finish the campaign on their first character : and it's better that they restart on a 2nd, 3rd... one than beating their head against the wall with a completely screwed up build (the situation is much better these days of course with cheap gold respec).
But this will still take time.

« You'd be surprised by how bad we, the new players, are. I have more than 40 hours and I'm barely after the first boss in ACT 6. That being with my 4th character. Failed with the other 3. (Now I'm working on a 5th Hunter, because I kiiind of get what I have to do now) »

[7.6/0] Mandatory counter-review for the other ~half of the game.

Yes kinda hard to understand the urge to stop phrecia...
I'm not feeling to play private league on settlers. POE 2 is a total mess. Guess we have to wait for our next yearly update.

lol @ those examples.

Even a BRAND NEW TO RPG GENRE player took less than 96 hours to complete the campaign. Basically the same as someone who's never touched a computer. And you included that in your "average" times.

But still, that is a valuable data point. The absolute lowest possible experience level gamer still finished the campaign in 96 hours. And guess what? They also PLAYED 96 hours. How much time is that per day in a 3-4 month league? Less than a single hour on average per day. For someone who seemed to WANT to play the game and liked playing the game so probably put in way more time than that after finishing the campaign.

Everything else you have said and showed in those last two posts is total nonsense.
1. You pick a reviewer who clearly has only negatives to say about the game, and is literally getting paid by IGN to take it slow.

2. An article with the SAME reviewer and same video.....nice job there.

3. Devolving into a completely different realm of PC issues and loading times to try and prove what?

4. A third article with the......same reviewer and same video. ***Benefit of the doubt: you screwed up all the hyperlinks.

5. Hold on.....lets go back to that "noob arpg player" that said they took 80-88 hours. That wasn't even the video that you linked, it was a completely random unverifiable youtube comment. The video actually shows a player who took (guess what), less than 24 hours. While streaming and playing for his audience, which naturally slows the process down.

6. Someone who says "You'd be surprised at how bad WE are" when talking about new players is not a video to be taken with any kind of legitimacy. You wrote that he said "failing" 4 or 5 times" (wrong hyperlink i guess) and then presumably just giving up, which tells you all you need to know. That's fine and everything, but that is not your average "new" player. That's just an example of a REALLY BAD new player. An outlier.

Come on dude. PLEASE wake up to reality. 10 acts means nothing. By Act 3, I can guarantee you that a brand new player, who hasn't already quit, has already learned enough to probably finish the rest of the 7 acts in the same time it may have taken them to complete ONLY act 1. Maybe a slight slowdown in Act 6.

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cowmoo275#3095 wrote:

Even a BRAND NEW TO RPG GENRE player took less than 96 hours to complete the campaign. Basically the same as someone who's never touched a computer.

ARPG, not RPG.
It isn't basically the same, that's ridiculous. Have you never tried to make someone to try a (PC) video game - someone that doesn't play them - even if they do actually use a PC for office work ?

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And you included that in your "average" times.

I didn't say anything about 'average', and it's around the top end of the range I gave (I based it off them).

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But still, that is a valuable data point. The absolute lowest possible experience level gamer still finished the campaign in 96 hours. And guess what? They also PLAYED 96 hours. How much time is that per day in a 3-4 month league? Less than a single hour on average per day. For someone who seemed to WANT to play the game and liked playing the game so probably put in way more time than that after finishing the campaign.

I still want to play PoE2 yet both characters ended up in 'standard' before finishing Act 3. Other priorities get in the way, and you can neither assume continuous play, nor, as I already mentioned, starting at the beginning of a season.

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1. You pick a reviewer who clearly has only negatives to say about the game, and is literally getting paid by IGN to take it slow.

As you can see, they don't (and it would have gotten a lot less than 7.6 then), and why would you assume that they took it slow on purpose ? (Just look at their left click and passives tree.)

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3. Devolving into a completely different realm of PC issues and loading times to try and prove what?

That (as I forgot myself) these issues can severely slow down your gameplay ?

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***Benefit of the doubt: you screwed up all the hyperlinks.

Those are links to comments.

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5. [...] The video actually shows a player who took (guess what), less than 24 hours. While streaming and playing for his audience, which naturally slows the process down.

29 hours for campaign + seemingly 1 map after.
That's why I put 24 hours as the lower end of the range.
He didn't stream. He streamed for the first time ever after that. That was recorded 'offline', the help I mentioned was from YouTube comments after he uploaded his first video.

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6. Someone who says "You'd be surprised at how bad WE are" when talking about new players is not a video to be taken with any kind of legitimacy. You wrote that he said "failing" 4 or 5 times" (wrong hyperlink i guess) and then presumably just giving up, which tells you all you need to know. That's fine and everything, but that is not your average "new" player. That's just an example of a REALLY BAD new player. An outlier.

Why would you presume that ?
Why would you think it's an outlier when only 14.7% players using online Steam have completed Part 2 of the campaign ?
(And if we were to discuss a 'typical' player, I would prefer somewhere between 'median' to 'average', as average (like concurrent Steam numbers) really skews for playtime.)
But yet again, you're the one pushing for 'average', while I never claimed that.

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Come on dude. PLEASE wake up to reality. 10 acts means nothing. By Act 3, I can guarantee you that a brand new player, who hasn't already quit, has already learned enough to probably finish the rest of the 7 acts in the same time it may have taken them to complete ONLY act 1. Maybe a slight slowdown in Act 6.

You're the one that failed to provide anything to support that claim.

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BlueTemplar85#0647 wrote:

a bunch of bad-faith nonsense

Oh please.

Are you seriously going to look at people who have 88 hours played, which is total time in-game including idle time and multiple characters, and saying that's in any way representative of a new player's experience beating the campaign?

And that's before we even mention that your "sources" are things like youtube comments, and literally every single verified account puts new player campaign clears in the 30-40 hour range.

Just use your brain here, please.

Every act of the campaign involves going through 15-ish areas, depending on the act. 10 hours to get through 150 areas is insane. Like... it's actual insanity to think anyone is seriously spending, let me check my math here, FORTY MINUTES in the Tidal Island, doing... whatever it is you think they're doing?

People finishing the campaign in more than 40 hours aren't actually playing that entire time, they're spending the bulk of it idle in town. It's simply NOT POSSIBLE for them to be playing the game for that amount of time, no matter how unskilled and unknowledgeable they are. The game is just isn't that big, my man. That's why everyone roasted the IGN review you're seriously using as a source (lmao, even) when it came out: it was incredibly obvious to literally every single person playing PoE at the time that the reviewer was scamming their employer by idling in town while pretending to be working.

It's like saying it takes 2 years to cross a street, because you didn't cross that particular street for 2 years.

I'm sorry....there's just no reason I should have to support my claim. It's common sense: short of a person exploring every area, killing every monster, and not linking any skills, it is simply impossible to take that long to complete this campaign. Even when you are new.

It is not that long. Period. For anyone. The "average" new player is not someone writing a pseudo-professional review, random streamer, or someone completely new to playing arpgs or rpgs.

That claim is just outlandishly ridiculous.


And this is all totally irrelevant anyway.....the original argument you were trying to make is that new players start and play in standard. They don't. Even if the campaign takes them some absurd number of hours. If they like the game and continue it, like 90+% of the rest of the players they are restarting a new character when the next league releases.