Races and PvP should take a page from Magic the Gathering: Online

Separation into two separate ladders- a "casual" ladder that rewards participation and a "competitive" ladder that rewards success- is a good idea. The details are not too important, but the concept is.

GGG is taking steps forward with "signature" events although that ladder does not have much (any?) visibility so I don't think many people know about it. I'm not sure how the ones who are competing on it are supposed to track their position relative to the competition. Anyway, my point is that GGG already seems to have recognized the problem and is working toward a solution, it's just that we can post and criticize ideas faster than they can code and test solutions.

As for the two controversial ideas:

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

Now for my two controversial opinions. My first is: Give events a small microtransaction entry fee. Yes, I know GGG is against pay-to-play, and I think that the permanent leagues and causal should remain as they are so that anyone who downloads the app can play the main game for free. Nor am I suggesting that GGG intend to "make a profit" from running events; actually, the MtGO model proves that GGG can run events that give away more than they take in, and still win in the long run because events would provide an economic stimulus. However, when players are able to enter tournaments for free, this model falls apart by becoming exploitable.

I'm thinking more like: 8-man queues would have an entry fee of 1 microtransaction credit (cheap!), and a payout of 4 credits to first, 2 credits to second, and 1 credit each to 3rd and 4th. The house take? Zero. Essentially, this would be player-funded prize support, using a currency that actually matters and has more solid value. The values are low, but you'd still find players hoping to earn their credits this way by "going infinite" through a string of consecutive wins. (Although the currency system is very interesting from an ARPG design standpoint, it would be too difficult to implement here, hence microtrans credits instead.) Some Daily events would likely have an increased entry fee; events that count towards the Season Ladder even more so.

I think you missed some of the power of the digital medium here. You can make this less controversial: Players are eligible for different rewards depending on whether they elected to join competitively (paid a microtoken) or casually (paid nothing). Therefore anyone can join (the difference in entry fee is not the same as the two separate racing ladders by the way). The competition pool can be the same, letting players "try before they buy."

There is a technical problem to using cash tokens in that GGG would have to verify how their system relates to the gambling laws in all the territories that they operate, so there may be implementation details to iron out that push the solution into something different from what is desired.

All that aside, is paid racing really that good of an idea? I have my doubts. The analogy to MTGO breaks down because MTGO is a pay-to-play in the first place. Furthermore, when you pay to join events you get some cards just like any other time you spend money on the game (as I understand it). POE is free-to-play, so paying for events represents a greater departure from the norm. The real meat of the idea here is the 8-man and not the coin (I still don't really see how this would be implemented, but just assuming there are 8-man races). The coin just codifies how gambling on the sport will take place, which is not something that needs to be made official.

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

Lastly: create an end-of-season championship event for the players at the top of the ladder rankings at the end of the regular season; essentially, the season playoffs. Extensive online coverage, including official GGG live streaming of the event, and rewards in cash. This type of event would draw a huge new audience of professional gamers (and wanna-bes) to PoE, as well as giving it lots of interesting press. Naturally, the prize support for this event would be a donation unless microtransaction entry fees were implemented for the smaller events, and thus likely outside of GGG's budget if they elected not to do so.

That's not really controversial of course it would be great. But it would require a dedicated commitment to eSports which neither GGG nor the community seem to have shown so far. Basic things are missing like where would the advertising come from? Who would commentate/narrate such an event? Practically speaking this is pie-in-the-sky for now.

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PolarisOrbit wrote:

Separation into two separate ladders- a "casual" ladder that rewards participation and a "competitive" ladder that rewards success- is a good idea. The details are not too important, but the concept is.

I don't really see what the point of the casual ladder would be. Proof that you play more than anyone else? I think it's better to have participation points and competition points operate on the same system, but towards different ends; this is especially true if someone joins that kind of event on a whim and ends up doing very well.

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PolarisOrbit wrote:

There is a technical problem to using cash tokens in that GGG would have to verify how their system relates to the gambling laws in all the territories that they operate, so there may be implementation details to iron out that push the solution into something different from what is desired.

Ugh. Good point. Even if they want to do it, this might be a dealbreaker.

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PolarisOrbit wrote:

All that aside, is paid racing really that good of an idea? I have my doubts. The analogy to MTGO breaks down because MTGO is a pay-to-play in the first place. Furthermore, when you pay to join events you get some cards just like any other time you spend money on the game (as I understand it).

You understand it well enough. However, when you race in PoE, you also get items, which are eventually transferred along with your character to Default. Both systems have that in common.

Additional suggestion: Races with the Hardcore designation should transfer characters to Hardcore League when finished. That would allow the HC>SC crowd to possibly acquire new wealth from racing; the Default League players could just kill the character off.

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

Who would commentate/narrate such an event?

+1 to a good thread.

this might actually get me interested in racing, instead of logging-in, seeing a "GodlyLadderno1 is the first one to kill Merveil" message while I'm still fighting Hillock, realize I'm probably last and will consequently get no points - and hit "log out".

participation points for getting a first level-up, per-demand events eliminating time-zone craziness, and the possibility that "GodlyLadderno1" and his friends "GodlyLadderno2", "GodlyLadderno3", and "UberNoLiferEveryRace" will not join the race event you're in, therefore actually giving you a chance of a fair ranking - are especially eye-catching to me.

I would also enjoy watching a streaming, commentary coverage of "the playoffs".

price is a concern, though.
since awards are in-game items, there should be no entry fees for the low-profile races.
and high-profile events should all have entry fees AND cash prizes, "the playoffs" being the most prestigious and highly-paid one.

Sounds great - Races need some compelling bait and there are some great ideas here that would pull me in more. Not so much the P2P and I'd also rather have the option to pay ingame currency to compete but the ability to race free and perhaps earn the race participation points either way.

Nice one, sir Scrote!

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

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PolarisOrbit wrote:

Separation into two separate ladders- a "casual" ladder that rewards participation and a "competitive" ladder that rewards success- is a good idea. The details are not too important, but the concept is.

I don't really see what the point of the casual ladder would be. Proof that you play more than anyone else? I think it's better to have participation points and competition points operate on the same system, but towards different ends; this is especially true if someone joins that kind of event on a whim and ends up doing very well.

Ah yes I misspoke, just casual "points," not casual "ladder." There is no need for participation points to be public. (Although on the other hand it wouldn't hurt anything to make it public either- kind of like the "Default Ladder" under the Events button of this website)

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Additional suggestion: Races with the Hardcore designation should transfer characters to Hardcore League when finished. That would allow the HC>SC crowd to possibly acquire new wealth from racing; the Default League players could just kill the character off.

Isn't that already the case?

I do not think I would ever risk GGG coins on racing unless they took a lot of the RNG out of it. If one person has 2 quicksilvers + ms boots at lvl 2 he has a HUGE lead over a guy 50 minutes into the race with no ms boots / 2nd quicksilver.

I would however risk in game currency because I do not do anything but racing lol. The brackets could be something like what I wrote below...... I agree that if you allow people to make races with any amount of currency/type then there would be too many so it would be best to only have a few choices. I suggested 7 which I think is still too much but spread the risk decently...



I also like the idea of events that matter more than others. Possibly once every weekend there could be a race only people who have won a demi could enter (from any season). The random prizes in that race would be slightly above what the average random prizes are. With one really good item like a Shavronne's Wrappings to encourage participation. The reward points would work differently since everyone is a demi winner with more importance on class ranking than level. Something like below for 1 hour..



I think by having a demi won needed to enter the weekend races that would encourage more people to practice enough to win one of the normal races that go on all the time. Still though.... we need more motivation to compete / practice. Like cosmetic stuff or something..

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Powster wrote:

I do not think I would ever risk GGG coins on racing unless they took a lot of the RNG out of it. If one person has 2 quicksilvers + ms boots at lvl 2 he has a HUGE lead over a guy 50 minutes into the race with no ms boots / 2nd quicksilver.

I would however risk in game currency because I do not do anything but racing lol. The brackets could be something like what I wrote below...... I agree that if you allow people to make races with any amount of currency/type then there would be too many so it would be best to only have a few choices. I suggested 7 which I think is still too much but spread the risk decently...

Spoiler

1 alch
5 alchs
10 alchs
15 alchs
1 exalt
3 exalt
5 exalt

Yeah, especially with the international legality issue, I'm trying to think of a solid plan for implementing in-game currency entry fees and prize support, instead of microtransaction credits. However, I don't think focusing solely on alchs and exalts is a good idea. I'm trying to involve as many different currencies as possible, without cluttering the queue interface... and I think I have a pretty good idea I'll submit before end of day.

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Powster wrote:

I also like the idea of events that matter more than others. Possibly once every weekend there could be a race only people who have won a demi could enter (from any season). The random prizes in that race would be slightly above what the average random prizes are. With one really good item like a Shavronne's Wrappings to encourage participation. The reward points would work differently since everyone is a demi winner with more importance on class ranking than level. Something like below for 1 hour..

Spoiler

level 16-18 = 1 point
level 19-21 = 2 points
level 22-23 = 3 points

class rank 1 = 5 points
class rank 2-5 = 3 points
class rank 6-10 = 2 points
class rank 11-20 = 1 point

I think by having a demi won needed to enter the weekend races that would encourage more people to practice enough to win one of the normal races that go on all the time. Still though.... we need more motivation to compete / practice. Like cosmetic stuff or something..

First off, I'm totally against level-based points for competitive ladders. Class rank and overall rank only. These are not participation points.

But more importantly, Demigod's is too steep an entry requirement for a once-a-weekend tournament. Yes, there should be big-shot events, but getting a Demigod's is far harder than you make it out to be... just because you happen to have a lot of them doesn't mean it's easy. After all, what if you're racing too? Getting a Demigod's as a witch just became that much harder for everyone else.

Big-shot events should be rather rare affairs... once every three months, like Magic's Pro Tours, is about the right frequency, which is why I suggested end-of-season playoffs.

So instead of microtransaction points for entry fees:

Four continually supported race queues: One-hour cutthroat, Two-hour solo, Three-hour party, and Flavor of the Day.

Three continually supported entry fee levels (stakes):

• Low stakes: 20x Orb of Alteration, 20x Chromatic Orb, 12x Jeweler's Orb, or 8x Orb of Chance. Currency selection rotates every 15 minutes.
• Medium stakes: 6x Cartographer's Chisel, 5x Orb of Fusing, 7x Orb of Alchemy, or 4x Blessed Orb. Currency selection rotates every 15 minutes.
• High stakes: 4x Orb of Scouring, 3x Chaos Orb, 3x Orb of Regret, 2x Regal Orb, or 1x Gemcutter's Prism. Currency selection rotates every 12 minutes.

Higher stakes (Divine and Exalted) are reserved for scheduled events.

Giving us ten total options:

• 1h cutthroat low stakes
• 1h cutthroat medium stakes
• 1h cutthroat high stakes
• 2h solo low stakes
• 2h solo medium stakes
• 2h solo high stakes
• 3h party low stakes
• 3h party medium stakes
• 3h party high stakes
• Flavor of the day (has its own special stakes)

With each stake tier, the various currencies would be both uniquely offered and time-staggered. To explain what I mean, here's an example: let's say at 12:00 1H low is taking Alterations, 2H low is taking Chromatics, and 3H low is taking Jeweler's. At 12:05, 1H low changes to Chance. At 12:10, 2H low changes to Alterations. At 12:15, 3H low changes to Chromatics. Thus there is a change every 5 minutes across the lows and mediums, and every 4 minutes across the highs. This means that if all you care about is spending a particular currency, your wait time will always be under 8 minutes.

Immediately after a stakes rotation, queues with players in them would persist until either the queue is filled, all players leave, or another 5 minutes (or 4 for high-stakes queues) passes.

I'm going to edit the OP to reflect this system; the original multitransaction text will be moved to a spoiler at the bottom of the OP (for posterity).

Would love to see "special" 135min/2h/3h solo/party races that only happen once a week/month/season with unique rewards (something like a season demi with alternative text info or doubled/tripled points in season ladder). The reason for these races is that you can get away with doing stupid YOLO builds in current races, because you dont really care if you die - a dedicated racer can play like 3-4 events per day. This wasn't the case in the closed beta when you only had like 2-3 races per week @ weekends.

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cwu wrote:

Would love to see "special" 135min/2h/3h solo/party races that only happen once a week/month/season with unique rewards (something like a season demi with alternative text info or doubled/tripled points in season ladder). The reason for these races is that you can get away with doing stupid YOLO builds in current races, because you dont really care if you die - a dedicated racer can play like 3-4 events per day. This wasn't the case in the closed beta when you only had like 2-3 races per week @ weekends.

Good point. Although I'm suggesting the ability to race at any time, the highly competitive, "Premier" events should definitely have prize support that sets them a cut above the common events... enough to make people stop acting silly and start getting serious.