0 Monsters Remain - 0 Waystones Dropped

Oh I assure you, you can have strings of luck so bad you will believe it is targeted harassment by GGG staff. 20K chance orbs or whatever it was just to get a whispering ice in scourge league? (My guys name is Snollerboys if you wanna check out the staff I got direct help from THE Kelvynn - god of whisper ice with) This game is random. SUPER random. Super weighted twords zero. Sometimes weighted twords depression.

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MoonPeace#1394 wrote:

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Valsacar#0268 wrote:

It's not random, it's a lack of understanding how the system works.

Considering my understanding of relevant mechanics (which, to be fair, may be lacking as you suggest), that's going to take some explaining, especially if you want it to be convincing. Neither a lack of understanding on my part, nor the claim that "it's not random" will be taken as implied truth.

And I wrote a long post in this thread explaining what you need to do to sustain.

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MoonPeace#1394 wrote:

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Valsacar#0268 wrote:

150% is not really high, and just 12% increased on the node is also not very high. 300% is what I aim for on maps that I want to get good returns on, and then use them on boss maps (that have been juiced by towers)...

I hear you...but I think the ability to engage with level-appropriate waystones, should be easier to achieve, for players who have either:

- successfully completed a map
- had a string of deaths

...and that's just about anyone. 0% increased waystones should be enough to play at an appropriate challenge level. Significant investment in improved outcomes should be gravy, and not that which is required to scrape by.

By the way, I respect disagreement...just restating my current position and expanding on it somewhat.

No, the game shouldn't have to hold your hand the whole way through it. At some point the training wheels need to come off.

What you suggest means we should just remove waystones completely, they would serve no purpose if you were guaranteed to always have enough for the level you were currently working on.

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Valsacar#0268 wrote:

And I wrote a long post in this thread explaining what you need to do to sustain.

I think I see where you are coming from: You intended your own related experience, running a waystone with ~500%+ increased waystone drop chance, multiplied to ~900%+ by your map atlas choices to increased drop chance, yielding the Boss drop result on that particular map, to represent the what one needs to do to sustain the ability to run maps of a reasonable tier, no matter what tier range they happen to be operating within currently. Is that correct?

If so, I respect your position on the subject. That might, in fact, be similar to the game designers' intention; Suffice to say, I disagree with that design decision, and I have posted that disagreement in the Feedback section. I agree (with exception) and disagree with some of your suggestions on a number of points, as follows:

Agree - I am neutral toward the position that a player should be willing to run maps of a range appropriate for their character, and not just the highest tier; I currently do that, and I don't have a problem with it -- It feels fine; However, this reality/situation is not that which motivated the original post. What did motivate it is this: In a situation where someone might have completely run out of level-appropriate waystones, The game (so far as I have seen) only offers T1 waystones available for purchase from the vendor (with rare exception) with the alternative of using the trade site to buy waystones. I disagree with that reality as a design choice, and I proposed a possible solution that would allow such a person to get back on their feet with basic waystones that have zero or limited crafting ability.

The above solution would solve that problem without compromising the value of standard waystone drops. A map anywhere in the level-appropriate range would be fine; In your case, Tier 13, for example. I haven't seen a comment from you about that solution, except indirectly:

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Valsacar#0268 wrote:

What you suggest means we should just remove waystones completely, they would serve no purpose if you were guaranteed to always have enough for the level you were currently working on.

Focusing on the actual solution I proposed, I'm interested in hearing your explanation as to how untradeable waystones with no or limited (to a Magic level) crafting potential would render other waystone drops to be without purpose. That statement implies that you see no functional (positive) difference between a 0-or-2-mod waystone and a rare waystone with more mods, or at least little enough difference that the existence of the latter would be rendered moot by the existence of the former. Do you really think that the increased number of positive mods on a rare waystone are worthless? There seems to be such a significant difference between these 2 that I am going to assume that you were exaggerating your feelings on the subject; That said, if you really want to stick to that argument, I am interested in hearing your rationale.


Disagree - I fundamentally disagree with the premise that a player should need to run Boss maps in order to sustain mapping; In that sense, yes, if it is a game-design choice that players need to run Boss maps to sustain mapping, I disagree with that game design choice, and not with you who are pointing out that it's a requirement. I don't like the storyline bosses...They were fun to beat as part of the storyline, once (or twice as the case may be); It might be fun to run them now and then, but definitely not as an integral part of the mapping routine.

Furthermore, I grasp the concept of % increases to waystone drop chance...So, you're wrong about it being a lack of understanding about how the system works. Rather, it is a disagreement with the choice to make the system work as it does...to the extent that insufficient provision has been made for those who have run out of level-appropriate maps to be able to get back on their feet without running waystones of very low tier or resorting to trade.

I already stated that I think 0%-increased waystone drop chance should be sufficient to continue running maps. I continue to feel that way, and I stand by that statement.

I don't think your "hand-holding-training-wheels" analogy applies...unless you present a convincing argument that my proposed solution, if implemented, would in fact render regular waystone drops to be without purpose.

Long post, and honestly I'm about to log off for the night. But I did want to quickly address the start of your post. My example was an extreme, used to show that the main factors in sustain are waystone drop chance and bosses.

In my own play I find 300% drop chance (on the stone) is more than enough to sustain if you play them on boss nodes. When I roll stones I set aside at least a few that have at least 300, then I run the towers where I'm at and start working though. Those saved maps will get used on bosses. Since I started that method (after I completely ran out of maps at T7) I have never had a problem with sustain. I oversustain comfortably.

There are other things you can do (emotions, vaal, etc) that can also sustain, but the boss method is the simplest and more reliable for me.

I was one of those that completely ran out, I was buying T1 maps from the vendor. That's when I sat down and tried to figure out what I was doing wrong. Dying was obviously one of them. But I also remembered that during the release event they mentioned that bosses are supposed to be at least as rewarding as the rest of the map (until the buff patch came in) so that's what I tried.

As for your suggestion, the game is balanced around trade. Many people may not like that, but it is a fact. Waystones (and maps in POE1) are something people need, some will learn how to over sustain them and then turn around and sell those extra to people who can't do it. There will also be a crowd of those who super juice and don't take any of the nodes for sustain that will also want to purchase.

Your solution completely removes that whole aspect, which is also one of the primary reasons waystones even exist in the first place. Otherwise, why not just do it like LE where each node is a map and you don't need an entry token. The entry token is there to cause friction and be something that can be traded with other players.

But I will have to leave it there, it's 1am for me.

If you're running maps at 150% you're the problem.