PoE 2 having more sockets is a lie

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AintCare#6513 wrote:

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IWalkTheLine#7164 wrote:

Either way being able to make only one skill faster is a huge disincentive to using multiple skills.

why? isn't the idea to alternate? FCR is only crucial on skill you spam the most. i rather have few slower skills that pack a better punch via synergy. if a skill is under utilized because its too slow its a balance issue not a support gem issue

I would strongly disagree, using a combo is already inherently slower than a single skill. So having to do it with skills that are also each numerically slower than they would be on their own makes combing feel worse. When you combo you need to use one skill to completion, then switch to another without cancelling the first. Often in specific circumstances so without relocating to avoid damage. But while still needing to react one of the skills being cancelled by stun etc. and to incoming damage that can't be safely tanked. And of course the longer the combo takes, the more likely interruptions are.

In this game a single slow attack is generally dangerous. Two slow attacks that must be performed together are always going to be more so.

There's other type of secondary skills than combos of course, but again most are very sensitive to skill speed to be worthwhile, at least for me.

poe1 i use 1 single target skill + 1trash mob skill. others might just use 1 skill for both and thats it.

poe2, i have 1 skill for single target/trash mobs, 1 skill to get a stun payoff, 1 skill for a armor break payoff, 1 skill to initiate boss fights. 1 skill conditional skill that i use for clearing trash mobs/large aoe.

you definitely have more skills/sockets hands down.

if ure talking about supports.

i would argue that GGG's implementation is brilliant. if supports had no limit,

why bother having payoff skills? payoff skills are balanced around this limitation.

a good example is for melee we have a support that does more damage if you're close, does more damage but you attack slower, does more phys damage but you cant deal non phys damage and a support that gives you more max damage.

the way it works now is you choose. do i want my main skill to have all that and do a lot of average damage? or do i put it all on the payoff skill? thus the player's damage output is "not too high" as meaningful choices have to be made.

without this tradeoff, EVERYONE will be using 3-4 same supports everywhere and damage will just be high everywhere.

in fact, path2's support system actually reveals poe1's support gem FAILURE. in most cases, all players socket in is more avenues for damage.

theres no smart choices and supports feels more of a requirement rather than a "support". path2 support gems feel more supportive rather than poe1's.

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IWalkTheLine#7164 wrote:

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AintCare#6513 wrote:

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IWalkTheLine#7164 wrote:

Either way being able to make only one skill faster is a huge disincentive to using multiple skills.

why? isn't the idea to alternate? FCR is only crucial on skill you spam the most. i rather have few slower skills that pack a better punch via synergy. if a skill is under utilized because its too slow its a balance issue not a support gem issue

I would strongly disagree, using a combo is already inherently slower than a single skill. So having to do it with skills that are also each numerically slower than they would be on their own makes combing feel worse. When you combo you need to use one skill to completion, then switch to another without cancelling the first. Often in specific circumstances so without relocating to avoid damage. But while still needing to react one of the skills being cancelled by stun etc. and to incoming damage that can't be safely tanked. And of course the longer the combo takes, the more likely interruptions are.

In this game a single slow attack is generally dangerous. Two slow attacks that must be performed together are always going to be more so.

There's other type of secondary skills than combos of course, but again most are very sensitive to skill speed to be worthwhile, at least for me.

again if the skill is inherently too slow to use safely it needs balancing not a support gem. socketing faster attack support on every attack skill you use was and is still boring.

I like the puzzle. I think it's pretty good, and you can do a lot of interesting things with how versatile they have made supports in general to compensate.

Most of those things are specifically elemental or melee, so I guess if you are playing one type of damage and aren't melee it might be a bit scuffed.

Balormage and Talkative Tri had a good conversation on this topic. I recommend looking it up on YouTube.

The problem with the 'more engaging gameplay' is that there are those builds and tehre are the 2-button screen wipers. I suspect that most of the latter will be eliminated somehow, but then there need to be some changes to the rest.

For example, I leveled one character as a Frost Sorceress. That was actually an interesing playstyle. I used the most freeze buildup I could shatter as much as possible with Cold Snap. The fun really started with Frost Wall which unfortunately comes very late in the progression. Frost Wall let me funnel enemies where I wanted them, often freezing them. I could then lob a frost bomb behind the wall to do more damage, and of course Cold Snap whenever possible. Boss/Elite fight were supplemented with Hypothermia, and Ice Nova (sadly very weak) for 'oh shit' moments and to clear critter gank squads. Freezing shards with Glaciation helped with freezing even more.

The thing is: while this was really fun and kinda felt like something I would associate with the idea of 'slower, more meaningful combat', it was just terribly slow. Killing stuff just took to long, the funneling and kiting gets annoying after a while, and the many delayed attacks in the game - like frost bomb - make it even slower since there's a good chance you miss because the mobs are always on the move.

Compare that to the Youtuber zoomer builds. I *do* mostly play for the fun and not the result, but that experience was just too slow and tedious. I don't want 1-button map clear. I would actually prefer the playstyle I had with that Frost build, but within a balance that actually lets me get somewhere.

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Zork#7081 wrote:

The thing is: while this was really fun and kinda felt like something I would associate with the idea of 'slower, more meaningful combat', it was just terribly slow. Killing stuff just took to long, the funneling and kiting gets annoying after a while, and the many delayed attacks in the game - like frost bomb - make it even slower since there's a good chance you miss because the mobs are always on the move.

i had a similiar experience on my warrior, it was fun to play, i had multiple skills for different situations and it felts satisfying but a lot of time too slow.
What ultimately made it not fun was comparing the gameplay to meta gamers.

Then i played a 2 button deadeye build and i was just running through twice as fast as my warrior, it had no friction or clunkiness at all but it also became boring quickly - poe1 had more complex combat than my 2 button deadeye, i had blink arrow flame dash maybe something like molten shell etc.

It wouldnt be as much of a problem if the game could be balanced around both playstyles but it cant

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raV#3445 wrote:

Then i played a 2 button deadeye build and i was just running through twice as fast as my warrior, it had no friction or clunkiness at all but it also became boring quickly - poe1 had more complex combat than my 2 button deadeye, i had blink arrow flame dash maybe something like molten shell etc

Exactly, that's not what I want, and the idea of those kind of more intricate playstyles are what brought me to PoE2. It'll be very interesting to see where this is going.

Addendum: on the way from 2-button zoomer builds to more engaging gameplay the issue of visibility needs to be solved first. Currently, the the 2-button style has the massive advantage of not having to deal with the pitfalls of stuff you can't see (nut would need to react to if playing the other way).

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exsea#1724 wrote:

poe1 i use 1 single target skill + 1trash mob skill. others might just use 1 skill for both and thats it.

poe2, i have 1 skill for single target/trash mobs, 1 skill to get a stun payoff, 1 skill for a armor break payoff, 1 skill to initiate boss fights. 1 skill conditional skill that i use for clearing trash mobs/large aoe.

you definitely have more skills/sockets hands down.

if ure talking about supports.

i would argue that GGG's implementation is brilliant. if supports had no limit,

why bother having payoff skills? payoff skills are balanced around this limitation.

a good example is for melee we have a support that does more damage if you're close, does more damage but you attack slower, does more phys damage but you cant deal non phys damage and a support that gives you more max damage.

the way it works now is you choose. do i want my main skill to have all that and do a lot of average damage? or do i put it all on the payoff skill? thus the player's damage output is "not too high" as meaningful choices have to be made.

without this tradeoff, EVERYONE will be using 3-4 same supports everywhere and damage will just be high everywhere.

in fact, path2's support system actually reveals poe1's support gem FAILURE. in most cases, all players socket in is more avenues for damage.

theres no smart choices and supports feels more of a requirement rather than a "support". path2 support gems feel more supportive rather than poe1's.

Definitely agree with this.

I find 2's system provocative and working as intended for combining skills into an effective rotation.

One of the better features of 2