T17s need to go

"

TayPoE wrote:

They were never happy when I said T17s should only be a boss fight which drop fragments for ubers.

I agree this is probably the only way to solve the issue, the whole reason they made t17s was as a prelude to uber bosses, then it should be just that: bossing content. Just take all the crazy % currency % scarab bonuses out of them, literally they could just make them be boss invitations to an instance with the t17 boss in it and nothing else, you can roll them for extra chance of the special uniques they drop(exactly like how you can roll searing exarch/eater of worlds invitations for more eldritch currency or higher chance of juicy drops like their jewels). That would be fine, and it would stop skewing the economy so hard. It's painfully obvious when a specific set of scarabs are still expensive late in a league while all others are 1c or 1.5c on faustus lol, that tells you which scarabs people are abusing in t17s. Explosions of like 1000 alterations, or 100 uniques from a single rogue exile while like 20+ are running around in the map is ridiculous.

Fomo and skill issue are just excuses to keep these horrible maps in the game, it can't all be the same 2 reasons when so many people dislike these maps so much.



And +1000 to the OP, most people agree that these maps are just annoying and bad for the game. And a complete chore to roll and run. There's a reason why so many people sell t17 carries and make so much currency from that, a lot of people don't even want to touch these maps because of the aggressively anti-fun design like: a lot of the map mods, enemies like the burrowing underground crabs and the list goes on. I've said all of it many times already.

+1 I don't count these as t17 personally, If I'm gonna go into a t17 i'd prefer there be a reason in the game for it story wise and maybe some group content before going deeper into the solo play development.

+1
T17 just doesn't feel like they fit in the game. But they was announced with Necropolis so that's probably why.

I'm not gonna weigh in either way in regards to balancing in T17 maps. We've talked about it to death.

I argue that T17 maps are simply a mistake. GGG did the right thing and removed magic find from the game, but then did a complete heel turn and introduced a new map tier that prints ridiculous amounts of currency as if it was never gone. Economy is still an imminent dumpster fire, but now only the already wealthy players can exploit the new feature to further broaden the divide. Well done.

^
Yep exactly.

In my opinion the kind of minmaxing to make t17s comfortable to run just isn't fun.

So many fun builds and uniques just aren't up to snuff without and serious dps and defense investment. To the point that pinnacle content becomes meaningless.

The number wang just is a bridge too far.

I don't care about the drops or Uber fragments. If I want to run ubers I'll just buy the fragments instead of running 30 t17s to maybe get a set of what I want.

They could give everyone a handful of mirrors but me and I wouldn't care.

Nonetheless some people enjoy t17. Good for them. I certainly don't. If they just stop putting challenges in them, a lot of criticism will go away.

Because challenges to gamers is often a checklist of things that everyone should do in a game. It's how achievements just are.

T17s aren't for everyone.

"

roundishcap wrote:

In my opinion the kind of minmaxing to make t17s comfortable to run just isn't fun.

So many fun builds and uniques just aren't up to snuff without and serious dps and defense investment. To the point that pinnacle content becomes meaningless.

The number wang just is a bridge too far.

I don't care about the drops or Uber fragments. If I want to run ubers I'll just buy the fragments instead of running 30 t17s to maybe get a set of what I want.

They could give everyone a handful of mirrors but me and I wouldn't care.

Nonetheless some people enjoy t17. Good for them. I certainly don't. If they just stop putting challenges in them, a lot of criticism will go away.

Because challenges to gamers is often a checklist of things that everyone should do in a game. It's how achievements just are.

T17s aren't for everyone.

Yeah the build variety in the game is hurt a lot because of t17s. Those maps and uber bosses having no challenges would also be a welcome change, challenges are supposed to be stuff in the main game, not optional side-content like ubers. If T17s are truly made optional, or just balanced properly then most of the complaints will go away. That and their insane loot explosions need to be toned down because that's only benefiting the 0.1% of players that print even more mirrors, skewing the economy in a bad way.

"

Pizzarugi wrote:

I'm not gonna weigh in either way in regards to balancing in T17 maps. We've talked about it to death.

I argue that T17 maps are simply a mistake. GGG did the right thing and removed magic find from the game, but then did a complete heel turn and introduced a new map tier that prints ridiculous amounts of currency as if it was never gone. Economy is still an imminent dumpster fire, but now only the already wealthy players can exploit the new feature to further broaden the divide. Well done.

exactly. at least everyone could do MF if they wanted to. slap on some cheap MF uniques and farm yellow burial chambers or whatever they were doing. i think GGG only wants the top players to be able to do it so they got rid of MF and made t17's for these people.

and i already know someone will say "everyone can run t17 also" yes but to actually get max profit you need to be able to run them without even looking at the map mods. thats how the top juicers do it. they roll the highest currency/quant/ pack size etc they can get and map mods dont matter to them

As someone who has spent the past week testing the differences between t16s and t17s, I agree they should be removed but not without appreciating the differences they provide.
a. t16s you can just spam scour and alch, thus removing the need to use a higher end currency like chaos orbs.
b. if you try and push t16s harder, the reward doesn't scale because of the limited mods available on t16s.
c. t17s have a higher ceiling, cause they have objectively harder mods (some more obscure than others).
d. there are literally 5 of them, t16 map diversity is huge even if people end up settling down on one or two maps.

When I run the same atlas, same scarabs, 8x mod t16s with 3x cartography of risk making it essentially an 11x mod t16s... i can't get anywhere near the loot of running the same setup in t17s
The difference is running 6x t16s, i can get 100k gold.
Compared to running 2x t17s, i get easily get 100k+ gold.

Conclusion: For those who decide to leave t17 as aspirational content and stick to t16s, they're just burning 4 times the amount of scarabs for lower loot.
So even if players have fun in t16, with a subpar character, they have to pay 4 times as much to achieve the lower results then if they played t17s with a top tier character.
which generates fomo cause the subpar characters have to work harder for longer at a higher cost.

In comparison to uber bosses, people have accepted only select few classes can defeat them and that's fine cause their loot table is limited.
GGG could extend this perspective to t17s, have them as individual encounters to farm uber fragments.

I'm also not a fan of T17 maps for a few reasons. I dont think they're purely bad and dont agree with removing them outright, but i much prefer other content.

Absolutely fine with bashing my head against difficult content and dont mind losing all 6 portals before even finding the boss room. Content intended to challenge me should be difficult- to me.

But I really don't like how many mods aren't making the environment/enemies more challanging and instead are turning fundamental parts of my build 'off'. stuff like no regen, reduced auras, massively reduced chance of blocking, etc. May as well have map mods like "notable passive tree nodes no longer provide benefits" or "no boots allowed in zone"