Why i m hyped for POE2 (MELEE)

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1453R wrote:

Okay. Riddle me this, then...

Melee can feel good/powerful even if all you do is attack is with a stick.

Also, melee can feel bad/underwhelming even if an attack results in nuclear explosions.

Depends how it is implemented in a particular game.

Things that make melee feel good/bad:
1. Animation
2. Damage/impact
3. Extra effects like cleave
4. Other factors like attack speed/cast/run speed, is the character stationary when attacking,

Example of a melee skill that doesn't feel good: You do a gazillion damage with a cleaving attack but as you are winding up your weapon, mobs run away from you while you wait for your attack to finish and start over.

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hasatt0 wrote:

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1453R wrote:

Okay. Riddle me this, then...

Melee can feel good/powerful even if all you do is attack is with a stick.

Also, melee can feel bad/underwhelming even if an attack results in nuclear explosions.

Depends how it is implemented in a particular game.

Things that make melee feel good/bad:
1. Animation
2. Damage/impact
3. Extra effects like cleave
4. Other factors like attack speed/cast/run speed, is the character stationary when attacking,

Example of a melee skill that doesn't feel good: You do a gazillion damage with a cleaving attack but as you are winding up your weapon, mobs run away from you while you wait for your attack to finish and start over.

personally i hate cleave with disdain because theres a certain point when it stops feeling like you're bonking the enemy.

cleave at base level feels melee. but cleave of rage practically aoes the entire screen. how does that feel like you're bonking the enemy with your weapon?

also one issue i have with POE specifically is that the devs allowed speed to become meta.

you simply cannot make melee impactful if you're hitting 10-20 times a second which is the best way to play melee in poe1.

in fact i find it rather silly that can be done in poe. it gets... immersion breaking too. in fact, at a point the melee skills should just become channelling skills since they attack so fast.

it also doesnt help that the devs insist on old d1 mechanics like stunning being simply damage vs your max life. you cant take d1 mechanics 1:1 in POE as d1/d2/d3 they have melee class advantages where you have a flat 25-30% damage reduction by default on all melee classes. POE is "classless" so melee is by default at a disadvantage.

performing a slow ass attack and getting stunned out of the animation FEELS BAD.

the sad fact is POE is too far gone. you CANNOT make TRUmelee feel good in poe at this point.

goes back to it being a major reason why ggg is just making poe2.

i cursed them for being incompetent. but the reality is the amount of work required to fix melee in poe1 is so significant, its better to just start designing a new game.

theres too much to test and balance if they wanted to make melee feel good now.

Real melee is a hopeless case in the context of POE. Bonking a handful of enemies with a big swing of your weapon... sure you can do that but given the benchmarks this game sets up it's going to feel like shit relatively speaking.

Mob density in POE and the threat level of even normal mobs simply won't allow something like that. If you can only kill monsters 5 at a time that means there are 50 others nukeing the shit out of you. Sure you can build to survive that in theory but most people fail at that in practise so it's a mood point.
And even if you survive it, the clear speed will be abyssmal compared to bows which is the main point of complaints regarding melee already. There is no fixing that without dumping the idea of real melee OR by completely revaming the entire game to a state of 6 or 7 years ago where monster density was still reasonable.

Animations are also a problem and part of the reason why people feel like their build sucks if their attack isn't fast enough to become a blur but it's one of the smaller fishes to fry imo.

I'd also like to say that to me high monster density is what makes ARPGs fun. I wouldn't want to play a game where you fight 3-5 monsters at the same time killing them one by one via kiting. I didn't like that kind of gameplay before POE and i'd like it even less now. Maybe i am too much of an anime/fantasy junky but melee characters shooting out windslashes and creating earth quakes by slamming the ground is "normal" melee for me.

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Baharoth15 wrote:

Real melee is a hopeless case in the context of POE. Bonking a handful of enemies with a big swing of your weapon... sure you can do that but given the benchmarks this game sets up it's going to feel like shit relatively speaking.

Mob density in POE and the threat level of even normal mobs simply won't allow something like that. If you can only kill monsters 5 at a time that means there are 50 others nukeing the shit out of you. Sure you can build to survive that in theory but most people fail at that in practise so it's a mood point.
And even if you survive it, the clear speed will be abyssmal compared to bows which is the main point of complaints regarding melee already. There is no fixing that without dumping the idea of real melee OR by completely revaming the entire game to a state of 6 or 7 years ago where monster density was still reasonable.

Animations are also a problem and part of the reason why people feel like their build sucks if their attack isn't fast enough to become a blur but it's one of the smaller fishes to fry imo.

I'd also like to say that to me high monster density is what makes ARPGs fun. I wouldn't want to play a game where you fight 3-5 monsters at the same time killing them one by one via kiting. I didn't like that kind of gameplay before POE and i'd like it even less now. Maybe i am too much of an anime/fantasy junky but melee characters shooting out windslashes and creating earth quakes by slamming the ground is "normal" melee for me.

This.

"Real melee" cannot work in PoE. It's too dense and too fast for that.

The only thing they can do with melee, is to make it feel mechanically good/smooth to play.

To me, fast attacking builds feel much better than slow attacking builds. I think Multistrike is a big factor here, because the targeting mechanics feel SO much better (especially on strike skills) - you just don't miss.

Slow builds, on the other hand, feel like shit, mostly because of monster power/density, but also because of mechanics/animations. I just don't see why attack time and attack speed are so linked in PoE - they don't have to be. Your attack animation can be very fast, even though the time between attacks stays the same. Also, buffing certain counter-attacking skills in PoE and give them some passive buffs too should make slow attacking builds feel better. It would make the "downtime" between attacks feel less like a "downtime".

@BAHAROTH and @PHRAZZ agreed. trumelee bonking enemies wont work in poe, but POE1 specifically.

poe 2 on the other hand, we've yet to see the endgame. the early game shows a good lot of promise.

from the game play reveals, whatever theyre showing even if we compare act by act, the act1-2 melee gameplay they show which is mostly trumelee, is much more satisfying that whatever trumelee poe1 has to offer thru out the entire campaign.

Not sure how anyone can say that poe 1 has melee so bad it can't be fixed, it has literally been very good at various times and has been NERFED intentionally.
This was not an accident, it was a choice.
Cyclone gladiator could do all content, was nerfed.
Then we had bleed lacerate, was not super fast but could do all content..
Was nerfed into the floor.
We had earthquake 1 shot build.. nerfed..

Stop saying nonsense like "Melee can't be good" it can and has been, it was a decision to break it, and i have no idea why.

It feels like an endless cycle of communities thinking the next thing will fix all that ails as if there isn't some sort of give and take in development decisions. POE2 might fix some of the POE1 issues but may also come at the cost of some of the things people like in POE1. Sometimes choices are between two mutually exclusive things; short of some new innovative way of approaching those problems. But more often than not suggestions to fix those problems create their own set of issues and/or have collateral unintended consequences.


Maybe that's a little cynical, but the cycle of the next game/release/thing fixing what bothers (generic) you respectively feels unending.

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Nubatron wrote:

It feels like an endless cycle of communities thinking the next thing will fix all that ails as if there isn't some sort of give and take in development decisions. POE2 might fix some of the POE1 issues but may also come at the cost of some of the things people like in POE1. Sometimes choices are between two mutually exclusive things; short of some new innovative way of approaching those problems. But more often than not suggestions to fix those problems create their own set of issues and/or have collateral unintended consequences.


Maybe that's a little cynical, but the cycle of the next game/release/thing fixing what bothers (generic) you respectively feels unending.

+1

Sooo glad to hear that PoE2 will come with Animations.

Also that guy with the blue flaming fists goes Punchmagic.

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Lachdanan wrote:

Sooo glad to hear that PoE2 will come with Animations.

Also that guy with the blue flaming fists goes Punchmagic.

I still play a text-based MUD with friends from college. Animations are overrated :)