Ranged vs Melee

Cool story bro. You proved nothing.

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Aynix wrote:

Cool story bro. You proved nothing.

I think he proved that he doesn't really understand what he is talking about.

The claims he made were that ranged builds on the regular have:

200 mio dps
can kill Ubers
do tier 17 maps

To prove that he linked a bunch of POE ninja showcases with 200 mio dps and like 1k ehp on average that aren't really suitable for actual game play. They might barely manage a map with a bit of luck but that's about it.

Then he linked an actual (maybe) somewhat playable glass cannon build that has 12 times the EHP of the POE ninja profiles he linked but barely half their dps doing some content with god knows how many deaths.

And finally he went and showed us a 30k ehp build aka 30 times the ehp from his poe ninja profiles doing a t17 map with a melee skill and only 12 mio dps.

3 claims, 3 different builds with each proving one and falling flat on the other 2. Cherry picking goes brrrrr.

Does he even understand that Ice trap and Hexblast are trap/miner builds that can't really offscreen and have way worse clear than LS of arcing no matter the damage? Does he understand that said LS build won't beat any of the ubers any time soon unless you put someone like mathil in charge of it?

If we do it like that i can say with confidence that melee builds can have 200 mio dps 500k+ EHP, do ubers and tier 17 maps. Heck, I could probably prove that in just 2 links. This is some first rate trolling we get here.

Most of the 200+ million dps melee builds with high ehp are either ridiculously pricy stat stackers where you could get a better ranged build for a fraction of the price or CoC Cyclone builds abusing nimis, which is arguable as to whether it really counts as melee or both. You seem to consistently think only of the absolute top tier for builds, where the difference between the most absurd melee and most absurd ranged largely amounts to clear speed and how much investment in survivability is required. Its at more reasonable investments that the gulf between melee and ranged becomes clear, most of the time ranged builds have a much easier time getting more damage and don't need nearly as much survivability to not get BTFO'd randomly by white mobs because they can kill stuff from the edge of the screen or even off screen.

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CarbotZergling123 wrote:

You seem to consistently think only of the absolute top tier for builds, where the difference between the most absurd melee and most absurd ranged largely amounts to clear speed and how much investment in survivability is required.

If that's the impression you have then you must have somehow managed to not read or understand a single post i've made in the last 2 or 3 topics. Congrats on that.

The other guy linked the pob profiles with all those 200 mio dps zehp builds using mageblood trying to have an argument. The topic of budget flew out of the window the moment he used that as a reference.

The matter of fact is if you look at POE ninja then all the builds with a somewhat decent mix of DPS and EHP are melee builds. The spells are all beyond glass cannon level of survivability and aren't even that much higher in damage and their price tag is just as through the roof as the melee builds with all of them using mageblood and shit so i fail to see the argument here.

Yes, ranged builds are better at playing glasscannon. And yes, glasscannons can do content. Some of them can do some ubers (icetrap/hexblast) quite well while others can speed clear with high dps + damage projection (lightning arrow). But those are 2 very different groups with only a very small intersection and that intersection is typically on the level of multiple mirrors of investment i.e pre nerf tornado shot during affliction.

If you think one trick pony builds like that are the pinnacle of build making be my guest but if you are trying to convince me of that you are frankly wasting your time.
If a build dies several times during a map it's not a good build. And zerking your way past uber bosses with dps and portals alone doesn't make a good build either, at least in my book. Even less so if that shit is expensive as hell at the same time.
And the only spell builds i know that don't fall into at least one of those 3 categories are poison pathfinders using FR, Spark or whatever. And most of the cases i've seen don't even reach the dot cap, nevermind having 200+ mio dps.

So again, if you know of any ranged builds that actually reach that level of dps with good EHP and on a low budget feel free to link them here i am genuinely interested in seeing something like that. It's not like i've played every build there is so maybe i am just ignorant but for some reason everyone goes silent everytime i ask that question, i wonder why.

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CarbotZergling123 wrote:

Most of the 200+ million dps melee builds with high ehp are either ridiculously pricy stat stackers where you could get a better ranged build for a fraction of the price or CoC Cyclone builds abusing nimis, which is arguable as to whether it really counts as melee or both. You seem to consistently think only of the absolute top tier for builds, where the difference between the most absurd melee and most absurd ranged largely amounts to clear speed and how much investment in survivability is required. Its at more reasonable investments that the gulf between melee and ranged becomes clear, most of the time ranged builds have a much easier time getting more damage and don't need nearly as much survivability to not get BTFO'd randomly by white mobs because they can kill stuff from the edge of the screen or even off screen.

Did you even read anything in this thread or you just join to say "meele bad, ranged better"?

I have been reading and you are both consistently focusing in on a very specific subset of builds, namely super expensive super high dps. I have never once said that melee does not work, I have repeatedly pointed out that melee is horrifically currency inefficient and good melee builds tend to be out of most players budgets resulting in either super fragile glass cannons or tanks with abysmal dps.

You're also arguing a point that even the devs have already conceded, melee is in a terrible position overall, that there are some ways to make it good at high budget and workable at lower budgets with very specific skills and set ups does not change that and pretending that its fine as is is incredibly disingenuous.

Furthermore poe ninja builds are not a good measure of anything, they are inflated PoB warrior setups using stuff like immortal call and evasion to inflate eHP numbers and berserk + capped rage and so on to inflate dps. Better measures of actual builds would be examining them in PoB so you can see what it looks like with or without situational buffs.

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CarbotZergling123 wrote:

I have been reading and you are both consistently focusing in on a very specific subset of builds, namely super expensive super high dps.

Yeah, you didnt read anything.

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Baharoth15 wrote:

50k EHP is what i'd consider the barely playable minimum even on ranged.

Shown plenty of cases of the top content in the game getting squashed with way under 50k ehp, still argues.

Reality is not important I see.

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trixxar wrote:

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Baharoth15 wrote:

50k EHP is what i'd consider the barely playable minimum even on ranged.

Shown plenty of cases of the top content in the game getting squashed with way under 50k ehp, still argues.

Reality is not important I see.

In affliction I was running around with 45k EHP on deli, 300%quant, t16s. Clearing all content before I even saw it.

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trixxar wrote:

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Baharoth15 wrote:

50k EHP is what i'd consider the barely playable minimum even on ranged.

Shown plenty of cases of the top content in the game getting squashed with way under 50k ehp, still argues.

Reality is not important I see.

If you wanna talk about reality maybe you should start looking at it rather than going for your own delusions.

That quote states my personal preference, nothing more, nothing less. It literally says "what i'd consider playable". It does NOT equate to "glass cannons can't do content". That's just a strawman you made up.
If i had wanted to say that i would have done so. To begin with the term glass cannon is pretty vague (for me it's <50k but i am sure other people see this differently) and that EHP stat isn't a perfect representation of a builds survivability.

Even in heavy cases of glassyness, if you pick your league mechanics properly, avoid stuff like betrayal, run your maps with minimum juice, play super carefully and use all 6 portals then obviously you can make it through at least some content on a build that has even 20k EHP or less. Heck, i've played builds with less than 20k EHP myself so i know for a fact that you can. As i said a few pages back, if that's your idea of good game play and good build go for it.
But from my perspective those are bad builds with shitty game play.

The part i've been questioning all this time were your claims regarding those 200 mio dps POE ninja builds speedfarming t17 and uber bosses. If you had actually read a single one of my responses you would have noticed that. And before you come with those vids of yours again, please realize that even the sabo build you linked had 12k EHP and 3k life while the POE ninja showcases had <1,5k life and <1k EHP for the most part. Thats a FUCKING MASSIVE difference even if both can be considered glass cannons.