What if MF do not exist anymore in the same way ?

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jsuslak313 wrote:

I don't want to start another argument, because I sort of see what you are saying.....

however,

We have almost total control over the current system, we just don't know the values. We are the ones that: choose the atlas passives, choose to run rare maps, choose to run x content, choose to use certain scarabs, etc. All those choices are "controlling" the difficulty and mf of monsters.

Affliction was no different than what we already have: it was just yet another multiplier on top of everything else.


You have to understand what each choice to "buff" a map is REALLY doing: you are adding to the difficulty and power of each monster, and increasing drops as compensation. This is literally the "affliction" mechanic (and basically EVERY mechanic).

What does running a rare map vs a white map do?
What does running strongboxes do?
What does running beyond do?
What does running ghosts do?
What does running side content do?

All of these things that WE choose to do add more difficult monsters or alter already existing monsters to be more difficult......for more loot.

You are listing all the stuff that has nothing to do with MF. Just because it can give you more loot doesnt mean its part of MAGIC FIND. Currently there are two types of MF we have control over (and third one, kinda)

First one is ofc MF from gear
Second one is rolling maps for higher quantity (and pack size, since more mosnters more loot)
Third one is atlas tree with the "middle circle" + can scale map modifiers to make second source stronger

Now, the second and third ones are fine because everyone has acess to them and all builds can use it.
First one is bad. Sacrificing your gear, gimping your build thus disabling 99% of builds (because only few builds will work with MF gear) is worst system one can ever imagine. Ofc if we just remove it and give nothing in its place people would rage, so something would need to replace it. Something that works like second and third sources - sometimes that can be used with all builds, that doesnt gimp your build etc. Here comes affliction wisps - all builds could apply it on top of existing modifiers to make enemies stronger and give more loot. Kinda like map modifiers, but more fun imo. Or just yoink corruption system from LE.

They could redesign slayer culling into something else and remove culling strike/southbound gloves. That would solve a lot of potential loot exploits in future leagues. Sure this league made single player magic find good through the back to basics node until it was patched but the real issue is magic find cullers for groups or relogs characters. If culling strike/slayer culling is removed along with southbound gloves it would force the damage dealers to sacrifice damage to wear magic find items. That would make it way less powerful and ggg could buff the baseline somewhat.

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Aynix wrote:

You are listing all the stuff that has nothing to do with MF. Just because it can give you more loot doesnt mean its part of MAGIC FIND. Currently there are two types of MF we have control over (and third one, kinda)

Dude......you REALLY don't like to read don't you? Every thread....

I was responding directly to YOUR comment "Wisps would be a great "new" mf system". You even AGREED with me already!

The POINT was that wisps would not be a new system at all, it is exactly the SAME as the system we currently have re: altering monsters and MONSTER IIQ / IIR. That is how wisps function, and it is how #2 and #3 in your previous post work as well. They are the SAME underlying structure: empowering monsters for greater rewards.

You said we "don't have control" over those systems like we did in Affliction.....but we DO have control. In all the ways I listed, and in your #2/#3.

We have literally agreed on everything...and then you come back and say it has nothing to do with mf and suddenly...don't agree? And then you ALSO proceed in the next sentence to again say it DOES!

You must really want another argument...



Regarding your final point of "wisps replacing mf": this simply does not work. Or I should say....GGG already does this almost every league. Every single time GGG introduces a league mechanic to the core game, this is what happens. Wisps CAN'T replace the current gear-based mf because they already fall into the SAME category as everything else. Think Delirium: stepping through a delirium mirror is basically the exact same thing as wisps. It makes monsters harder while increasing loot drops. Think alters: make monsters harder for more rewards. These all already exist in the game. Wisps can't EVER replace anything.....they only ADD to the same mechanics we already have in abundance.

Magic find isn't an issue - by itself.

The issue is the *many* multiplicative ways players can stack the ability to get *more* loot to drop. THEN magic find comes in to help convert.

I read everything you guys said. I agree by the fact saying MF isn't the problem for juicing maps etc.

The problem as i wanted to expose it is mostly the MF given by gear without any kind of real bad effect on the player and the MF in group play that should not even exist ( my opinion, not everyone has to think the same ).

Affliction wisps was a great way to get MF, as eveyone can go in and profit.

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Gris_Souris wrote:

I read everything you guys said. I agree by the fact saying MF isn't the problem for juicing maps etc.

The problem as i wanted to expose it is mostly the MF given by gear without any kind of real bad effect on the player and the MF in group play that should not even exist ( my opinion, not everyone has to think the same ).

Affliction wisps was a great way to get MF, as eveyone can go in and profit.

You give up a ton of offensive power to slot in MF gear.

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Sadima's Touch: no life, no defensive stats, 10% IIQ; will be corrupted for a curse on hit which gives some offensive power, though less than a level 10 curse would

Rare gloves get Eldritch implicits (exposure on hit, intimidate/unnerve, extra strike), spell suppression, resistances, life, armour/evasion rating, attack speed..

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Goldwyrm boots: no life, only 10% movespeed, some mana regen and ~T2 fire resistance as well as 20% IIQ

Rare boots will give you 30+ movespeed, life, spell suppression, resistances and so much more... crafted rare boots are nothing to scoff at.

My current boots make me elemental ailment immune in combination with 1 Abyss jewel + Stormshroud, as well as scaling my Archmage setup + Scorch:

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Ventors Gamble: IIQ + IIR, some resistances and up to crafted life

Many builds need ring slots to get some decent chaos resistance for their builds, which is why most MF builds run around with negative chaos resistance.

Rare rings have many functions, are one of the few places for -mana cost to skills, extra cast speed etc. Ventors are great for IIQ/IIR but you need a really well rolled one until it comes remotely close to a 1c ring stat-wise

And let's not get into Shaper Simplex amulets for IIQ because that's very high investment stuff that the average player doesn't have access to, sorta like boosting Gold Flask IIR with a Mageblood kinda levels.

Point being that you have to sacrifice power to utilize these items. You can't slap these on any build and do fine. That's why those bow builds require mirror tier bows for real endgame shenanigans while other builds smash the same content on a 10div budget

And thats why "MF builds" are same few skills for past 10 years

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jsuslak313 wrote:

Point me to ANY source from GGG and/or Blizzard where they say this is the "entire point" of mf in their games and I'll eat my words. And before you even say it: "everyone thinks/knows that" is not a valid response.

I mean they've gone a tier deeper down the rabbit hole but the entire concept is trading power for additional loot, if trading that power hasn't cost you anything then as a concept its a failure and just becomes the defacto route due to faster acquisition of one of the core reward structures of the game.

Not sure what they mean about not being to access harder content I think they made that part up but it should be more difficult to do so just because you've given up a significant number of modifiers for a stat with zero effect in combat.

That is the primary part where GGG have dropped the ball tbh, clearing on MF characters frequently feels better than normal ones but is exactly what will happen if your game allows a single slot to carry all the others.

I think the game as a whole would be A LOT easier to balance when it comes to drops and rewards if MF didn't exist. Sure, GGG will always be fan of additional layers to make dedicated players be and feel more powerful than the rest, but I really don't think the game needs MF for that to be the case.

MF is utterly terrible for the game, last league proved it and this league made it even more blatantly obvious. Last league with proper juicing but no MF you could get like 2 to 3 divs per map on average and maybe 20 divs an hour if you were fast, with MF you could get 50+ divs a map and likely clear roughly as many per hour for something in the vicinity of 4 to 5 hundred divs per hour in a team set up. This league its even worse because any non t17 grind is going to struggle to break 5 divs/hr without getting super lucky while t17 juicers are averaging 40 divs/hr and printing t0 uniques along the way.