I'm sick of zoom meta. (Speed creep created bad combat and game balance)

In some games, the only winning move is not to play.

I really hope that the general speed of this game gets reduced by about half. Of course the enemies are included in that.

Right now every enemy could look the same and there would be no difference. I'd prefer it if we had to actually engage with more enemy types and be like "oh shit it's x". To be fair, Archnemesis managed to do this to some degree. But I still think the overall gameplay is too zoom-y.

Ruthless mate ruhtless...

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TheDeathX wrote:

Ruthless mate ruhtless...

Again, "Switch to a mode where progression is slowed down" does not address any of the points I've brought up.

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ChanceWolf wrote:

I really hope that the general speed of this game gets reduced by about half. Of course the enemies are included in that.

Right now every enemy could look the same and there would be no difference. I'd prefer it if we had to actually engage with more enemy types and be like "oh shit it's x". To be fair, Archnemesis managed to do this to some degree. But I still think the overall gameplay is too zoom-y.

agreed. pre-enigma on the d2ladder it was awesome to be like "oh man, that's a <> with <>... gotta be mindful" when playing w/ the group.

And yea, AN was an amazing concept, but due to the way the game's balanced, we can't have deliberate and well designed combat outside of the pinnacles to be honest. so that's why it falls flat on its face, because in depth combat is literally directly against the current game design. (These enemies just turn into damage sponges which is so stupid and also bad design... but it's all GGG can do when we can literally ignore enemy mechanics with our speed and damage.)

just play grim dawn or d4 tbh. I still play poe because there's no other game with such build diversity but deep down I hate this one shot everything zoom zoom 500% ms meta. this is why I either skip a league completely or speedrun to 38 and uninstall.

about ruthless, it's not a solution to any of the problems. ruthless is just a boring mode that's intentionally designed to waste your time. no thanks. especially with broken stuff like totem explode, ruthless is pointless

Such a clueless take "AN was good" you are literally talking about a mechanic that literally takes you like 30 maps to create a really good an monster that either shat out loot or gave you absolutely nothing, while also having a chance its gonna be some unkillable shit that will require 20 mln dps and minutes of hitting...
If we got another league like that the game would be dead lol

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Kaboinglefop wrote:

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ChanceWolf wrote:

I really hope that the general speed of this game gets reduced by about half. Of course the enemies are included in that.

Right now every enemy could look the same and there would be no difference. I'd prefer it if we had to actually engage with more enemy types and be like "oh shit it's x". To be fair, Archnemesis managed to do this to some degree. But I still think the overall gameplay is too zoom-y.

agreed. pre-enigma on the d2ladder it was awesome to be like "oh man, that's a <> with <>... gotta be mindful" when playing w/ the group.

And yea, AN was an amazing concept, but due to the way the game's balanced, we can't have deliberate and well designed combat outside of the pinnacles to be honest. so that's why it falls flat on its face, because in depth combat is literally directly against the current game design. (These enemies just turn into damage sponges which is so stupid and also bad design... but it's all GGG can do when we can literally ignore enemy mechanics with our speed and damage.)

This is nonsense.

It isn't that AN gave us "good deliberate gameplay", it's a combination of several different things:

1) Most builds in PoE do one type of damage, so fight experiences are more binary--they can blow through a mob, or get brick walled, with fairly little in-between. Think about Pathfinders, for instance--chaos or bust.

2) The kinds of mobs that brick wall various builds vary from build to build. A chaos dot caster build will be brick walled by different affixes than a phys to cold attack build.

3) Deliberate gameplay fights only work when players can't wildly outscale the content through more DPS. Trying to create "deliberate" gameplay for mid-investment builds means misery for everyone starting out, and a cakewalk for higher investment (or just more DPS specialization).

4) Deliberate gameplay arises from the devs having a much smaller range of damage values to optimize for. If you're level 50 in a fairly linear JRPG (or even an open-world RPG with certain plot points), the devs have a pretty good idea of what equipment you have based on those rewards, and can tailor an experience more closely for that deliberate gameplay.

5) Loot rewards in PoE do not reward spending too much time on any one monster in most cases, though there may be certain boss-rush strategies that focus on trying to maximize the chance of a conqueror/synth/guardian map dropping from a map boss that one can easily rush (Coves, Atoll, City Square come to mind). For instance, for builds that can down an uber boss in 20 seconds, the profit/hour is "only" 20 div/hour. And I say "only" because imagine that you have a more reasonable build that takes 2 minutes for an uber boss. Congratulations, you're making 3 divs/hour, KEKW.

6) If your goal is to get the most loot, even if you die 3x per map, you might want to go ham on DPS. Look at Snoobae's builds using a mirror tier bow and running around with 3.2k HP just to get more IIQ/IIR. How do you adjust loot, simultaneously, for players that say "I paid for 6 portals and I'm determined to use them!" that go ham on DPS, speed, and MF, against players that want to have more engaging, deliberate play, and die less? How do you adjust boss loot for players playing Cast-on-Death discharge that can blow up uber exarch in 2 deaths and 20 seconds, while making that same loot compelling for someone that takes 4 minutes to complete a more deliberate encounter? If the answer is "decrease loot for every death", then once again, you make the encounters far more miserable at the beginning of the experience, before players grinded their way to a bunch of powerful items they bought through the trade site.

So, basically the question is:

How do you make deliberate gameplay rewarding? Because it isn't that I disagree--it's that the trade environment will adjust to people that shortcut the process and instead go ham on the DPS, because the faster the enemy dies, the less of a chance you have of doing mechanics (exarch balls), and the more profit per hour youmake.

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robert2003 wrote:

Such a clueless take "AN was good" you are literally talking about a mechanic that literally takes you like 30 maps to create a really good an monster that either shat out loot or gave you absolutely nothing, while also having a chance its gonna be some unkillable shit that will require 20 mln dps and minutes of hitting...
If we got another league like that the game would be dead lol

AN was good in concept.

The idea of a bullet sponge that could drop nothing or something is not what I describe in any of my posts.

Read beyond the few words you want to cherry pick to disagree with please.

If we have better paced combat, interestingly challenging "archnemesis" enemies that have good loot for the challenge they offer (Mechanic based, not purely stat checks) I think it would be sick.

Like I said, I think pinnacles are well designed although the drops can be grody if you are on a dry streak.

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auspexa wrote:

about ruthless, it's not a solution to any of the problems. ruthless is just a boring mode that's intentionally designed to waste your time. no thanks. especially with broken stuff like totem explode, ruthless is pointless

I agree its not "the solution" but as for being pointless... Yeah every mode of every game is pointless. Don't flatter yourself that Basic mode POE "has a point". Its like saying that drinking Hoegaarden beer is pointless because you like being drunk all night and Natty Lites are the cheaper easier faster way to stay drunk all night.

What about people who actually just want to enjoy a great tasting beer?

Ruthless is a mode made for the player that gets that all games are pointless and only the journey matters.