[3.25] Ice Dancing Queen - Icestorm/Cyclone/CI - Viable For Everything

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droshi wrote:

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AT 170k average hit on hard cast, each storm is doing roughly 1,3M. If you can keep two storms on target, you're dealing 2.6M. You're just starting out the build. At mid-range, you should get to twice that damage, which puts you at 3M for two storms, much more for 3-5.

Maybe, but I'm just saying, it doesn't feel like as much damage, sometimes things overlap in POE and sometimes they don't. I can just set storms to 5 in POB and it does x5, but that isn't always correct. I was going by just feeling of playing over 15 builds this league spending on each around 1-5 divines and this one is by far the lowest damage feeling output.

Well, you're playing the build at low investment and low level. There are very few builds that can trivialize T16s for 2-3 divines. To get to zoom zoom levels on this build, you need a bit more oomph. Level 90+ and 7-9div investment.

I'll agree that for a very low budget, RF will feel better. However, at 8+div, this build will be much tankier and better at single target damage. I played both last League.

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I feel like saying the damage is "low" because you're not one-shotting rares in maps while running at 150% movespeed is a bit misleading. There are very few builds that can do that and they are usually either very squishy or very expensive. Clearing Simulacrum 30 on a 15div budget is impressive. Unless you're aiming for Ubers, 50div is not necessary at all for the build to feel good.

It's not about 1 shotting rares, I have to backtrack for blue packs, I have to stop for 5-10 seconds at least for most rares. Essences are hard but so far are doable which I'm happy with just not dying to them. Map bosses sometimes can be done CwC in a minute, sometimes I switch to hard cast.

That wasn't directed at you. With your damage numbers, you have to go slower, that's for sure. You're still at the beginning of the build.

Switch to self-cast whenever you hit anything tanky. It's 2.5X damage, it's worth even for rares or Essence monsters. After a while, it's going to get very natural. If you're Cycloning over rares/Essence/bosses, you'll feel like you're dealing very little damage.

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I'm not hating on the build I'm just saying that damage feels low and that my POB even when I scale things up doesn't seem to get me to the numbers of the high budget even with similar final INT and full gem levels. I thought maybe there was something that really ups damage I could go for next, but at the moment just crafting a better belt doesn't seem like it would really do it.

It's a mix of intelligence, affixes that scale off intelligence and increased cold damage. Just switching Astramentis for the high-end amulet, for example, will give you 10-15% DPS. That's mostly because of the %damage per int mod. Same for the gloves. If you just put gems at 20/20 and add int, for example, you'll be missing out on those affixes. Plus, it's hard to quantify DPS with this build because of the storm's nature.

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milkytwix wrote:

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Kelvynn wrote:

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milkytwix wrote:

One more stupid question: Opportunistic is currently too expensive for me, so I'll go with One Step Ahead as 5th I guess?

Read the Ascendancy section

Does not help, because Ambush and Assasinate is half as expensive as Opportunistic - I will spare my money to go with Opportunistic.
MAybe my question should have been: What's the budget option for 5th ascendency?

If 'half as expensive' is still too expensive then the budget option is Heartstopper. It's very cheap. And lets you allocate One Step Ahead for easy Uber Sirus farming.

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droshi wrote:

I really want to like this build, I have good survivability, but the damage just seems so low. I'm not sure what I'm doing wrong, even with a lot more INT and levels and gem levels, I'd still only come in around 240k DPS in the hard cast setup.

The worst part for me feels like the int stacking, it's just much harder to come by gear not many people craft for others I suppose. I'm an idiot when it comes to crafting and from what it sounds like things are pretty difficult for several slots.

Even 1m dps would probably feel OK, but right now at 77 I'm at 170k hard cast and 62k CwC. I can clear red maps but it is rather meh even compared to a RF build.

Any ideas what I'm doing wrong?

You are lv 77. Most of this build's power comes at higher levels.

Your gems are still leveling and have no quality.

You gear is at the 'beginner mapping' stage, some is not even good for that. Follow the gearing guide. I don't quite understand why Int stacking is difficult for you.

At lv 77 with beginner mapping gear and lv 18 gems you can clear red maps. But it feels 'meh' compared to your lv 87 RF character. 10 levels alone can make a lot of difference. What exactly do you expect? What are your goals in this league?

If all you want is high clear speed then this build isn't great for that. Its clear speed is pretty average. The purpose of this build is to be able to do everything in every league: clear all maps, kill all bosses, do all challenges.

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droshi wrote:

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For a simple guide, look at my char's gear and compare yours, slot for slot. My %int gear is self-crafted and at the cost of only a few divines.

As mentioned, I'm not that good at crafting, but maybe you mean each piece is only a few divines? For me that's quite expensive. I had hoped for better damage at this level is all.

I meant my TOTAL cost was a few divines. I'm terrible at making currency, so can't really spend much and usually will never have the very best min-maxed gear. As for crafting, it's a skill that can be learned. Kelvynn's guide at the beginning of this thread is spot on and easy to understand.

And yes, it's around level 90 that T16 mobs melt away and you generally stop dying (except to boss effects I am too slow or stupid to avoid.) At level 77, I'm usually still levelling up in white and yellow maps.

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Kelvynn wrote:

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droshi wrote:

I really want to like this build, I have good survivability, but the damage just seems so low. I'm not sure what I'm doing wrong, even with a lot more INT and levels and gem levels, I'd still only come in around 240k DPS in the hard cast setup.

The worst part for me feels like the int stacking, it's just much harder to come by gear not many people craft for others I suppose. I'm an idiot when it comes to crafting and from what it sounds like things are pretty difficult for several slots.

Even 1m dps would probably feel OK, but right now at 77 I'm at 170k hard cast and 62k CwC. I can clear red maps but it is rather meh even compared to a RF build.

Any ideas what I'm doing wrong?

You are lv 77. Most of this build's power comes at higher levels.

Your gems are still leveling and have no quality.

You gear is at the 'beginner mapping' stage, some is not even good for that. Follow the gearing guide. I don't quite understand why Int stacking is difficult for you.

At lv 77 with beginner mapping gear and lv 18 gems you can clear red maps. But it feels 'meh' compared to your lv 87 RF character. 10 levels alone can make a lot of difference. What exactly do you expect? What are your goals in this league?

If all you want is high clear speed then this build isn't great for that. Its clear speed is pretty average. The purpose of this build is to be able to do everything in every league: clear all maps, kill all bosses, do all challenges.

As mentioned, I set levels of character, gems and int higher in POB, I was expecting better numbers. I'm not evaluating the characters where I'm at exactly right now. I remember where RF was at this level etc.

I'm not expecting the best clear or damage numbers, I know it's not going to be 50m+ DPS. But yes I had hoped with the 2 div budget to have achieved around 1m. Doesn't seem possible without many divines more invested. I have other jewels suggested and have set them up in POB and most things I can see have very mediocre gains for damage. That's all.

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I don't quite understand why Int stacking is difficult for you.

I guess that is a problem with this game, people that know it so well, things are so easy for them they can't understand others. I've been playing each league since metamorph but there's so many things I just don't know even still. Some builds are just not possible unless you have a PHD in crafting in this game. Then SSF and many builds I suppose become easy.

I know I'm just finding this now, but this seem accurate given what a lot of people here have said:
https://poe.ninja/challenge/builds?item=The-Whispering-Ice&sort=dps

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droshi wrote:

I guess that is a problem with this game, people that know it so well, things are so easy for them they can't understand others. I've been playing each league since metamorph but there's so many things I just don't know even still. Some builds are just not possible unless you have a PHD in crafting in this game.

You almost got it.

Few people really know this game well, usually everyone just copy and paste a build that someone made and just skip the experience of trying make their own experiments (that is not a bad choice if you are a new or non experienced poe player). But there are many problems involved on this.
Most of time the build has a evollution ramp and players think that it does not exist. Unless you have the currency to pay for power leveling until lvl 95+ and buy all the same itens as the showcase build has, you'll need to follow a long way until your character really shine.

The Whispering ice builds are usually fallowed by slow progress, because you have to improve itens slowly, step by step.

I see that you found the poe.ninja website, and there is the right place where you can find what players are doing. You can use the "Time Machine" dropdown menu on players profile to see how the character has evolved over the time.

This build is good, not easy, not for everyone, but is good. Has some drawbacks for sure, the clear speed is one(that I aways fight against), but in the end, after you get used, this is a build that can make you do all the game content (with enought time, effort and currency this is the reason why is not for everyone).

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droshi wrote:

As mentioned, I set levels of character, gems and int higher in POB, I was expecting better numbers. I'm not evaluating the characters where I'm at exactly right now. I remember where RF was at this level etc.

I'm not expecting the best clear or damage numbers, I know it's not going to be 50m+ DPS. But yes I had hoped with the 2 div budget to have achieved around 1m. Doesn't seem possible without many divines more invested. I have other jewels suggested and have set them up in POB and most things I can see have very mediocre gains for damage. That's all.

Did you add the two dmg per int?

Did you get to 2500 int?

Did you allocate all the passives?

2div is nothing to complete a build. 10div is more reasonable. At 10div investment you should be dealing 250-300k average hit at least, which is between 2-4M DPS.

With higher investement I got to 700k last league. Conquerors barely had time for two attacks before they dissapeared. Uber bosses melted.

I think you have the wrong expectations going into a build if you want 2div and be clearing all content. That's a very low investement.

First: I´m having fun with this build. Thanks for that.
There was a big gap between the end of the story and the mapping start, a full reskill of the tree and all new items was too expensive at this point. I had no drop luck and ended Act 10 and found less than 20 chaos. The first (and only up to now) Div was a blast, finally.
Now I´m not sure how to go on. Due to the second staff I had no space to level the gems a second time or parallel, so I think I must buy some gemcutters or ready 20/20 Gems. Which ones are the most important to get quality and give the most "bang for my bucks"?

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whiterockxx wrote:

This build is good, not easy, not for everyone, but is good. Has some drawbacks for sure, the clear speed is one(that I aways fight against), but in the end, after you get used, this is a build that can make you do all the game content (with enought time, effort and currency this is the reason why is not for everyone).

Yes don't get me wrong I really do like the build idea, I just don't think I'll be able to execute it and get it to the final stages, other builds require less gear crafting knowledge or are much more deterministic in their crafting guides or gear can be bought very easily for them. Just makes it easier for people like me.

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WinterHiko wrote:

Did you add the two dmg per int?

Did you get to 2500 int?

Did you allocate all the passives?

2div is nothing to complete a build. 10div is more reasonable. At 10div investment you should be dealing 250-300k average hit at least, which is between 2-4M DPS.

With higher investement I got to 700k last league. Conquerors barely had time for two attacks before they dissapeared. Uber bosses melted.

I think you have the wrong expectations going into a build if you want 2div and be clearing all content. That's a very low investement.

Not expecting any content except working my way up to T16 maps on that budget and just evaluating it vs other builds. The only thing I have more money invested in is poison SRS and I'm not evaluating based on that.

Maybe like others say it's not fair to compare them at low power levels, I just don't have the ability to rank up so many builds to max level and gear level to evaluate them.

I appreciate all the advice given here, I'm able to determine it's likely not the build for me next league.

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droshi wrote:

other builds require less gear crafting knowledge or are much more deterministic in their crafting guides or gear can be bought very easily for them. Just makes it easier for people like me.

Understood. One of the things playing WI has taught me is that there are literally about fifty things you need to do right to fully optimize the build. I spent hours and hours last league comparing Kelvynn's POB to mine, trying to understand each and every difference. Every little thing counts, every little thing adds a bit to dps, and it's all effectively like compound interest. 3% here, 2% there, 5% here, etc, it all adds up.

I've tried to both follow a naked POB and other build guides. They ended up nowhere near as defensive as the WI trickster build. You do zero dps when you're dead, after all.

There's a three dimensional graph of POE builds that should be drawn with input from everyone. The axes are: dps, tankiness, cost.

WI is mid range dps, high tankiness, and ~10 div cost (my gear where I can do all except uber bosses.)

I've spent the last ~10 leagues looking for a better build (something that has more dps and tankiness and about the same cost) and have failed to find it. Do you have a suggestion?

(Don't forget the huge cost savings for WI only needing 5L armor and 6S (not 6L) weapons!)