In response to the quick discussion about PvP from ExileCon

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lolozori wrote:

HLD without ascendancies could be fun imo.

Except now try to convince people to try out PvP, and all they have to do is create a new character and never ascend them haha

PvP low nor high level isn't going to have a continual appeal to most people. Given the sheer fact it's just like fighting game communities, people habitually pick the cheesiest laziest win button shit they generally can. When that gets fixed, if ever.....they vanish for a while until they resurface with something else. They wear a mask of bull shit all over their face so when confronted they can easily downplay it or ignore facts. Yes that's part of competition I suppose, to find the strongest stuff you can so you have to put in as little effort to win. But it just clearly feels different when you're dealing with games where balance is constantly neglected until months,years,forever down the road. It's also very much the trend and if you think it isn't you're putting on that same face mask right now.


PvP is more interesting in a non structured open platform. Like expressing hostility on a group of people in Diablo2. I have nothing against structured formats but it amplifies the issues of balance when you're playing a game of rock paper scissors and the guy has bomb.

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MullaXul wrote:

Given the sheer fact it's just like fighting game communities, people habitually pick the cheesiest laziest win button shit they generally can.

Yep, and it seems like its only getting worse. The thing that saves fighting games from this is that every option is counterable by some kind of strategy in a balanced game. In Poe the only real option available to you is gear swaps and in the past that wasnt so bad, swapping to a talisman to tank poets pen guys etc, but now it seems like if youre playing the 'wrong' build you just lose and no swaps will help. Damage is way too high and easy to apply, and no amount of gearswaps help you mitigate or avoid it.

on the contrary , tanks are difficult to deal with now. at least on standard. But i agree on playing the "Wrong build". Besides, patch after patch the game gets more complicated, resulting in harder balance , till the point where they might not balance it anymore. At this point, Less damage to players seems like the only way to balance certain skills and i feel personally its either too little or too much. HLD is bad these days esp when nerfs lands every 3 months, gear discrepancy is so big, you need good gear, and that requires alot of investment but who would invest if something might just last until the next patch.?

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relithh wrote:

who would invest if something might just last until the next patch.?

pretty much the state of std. while nothing justify more power creep and gear from 2015 can 1 shot anything but deep delve, they keep adding new stupid insane mods that kill standard items investment.

Who want to invest in this game on the long run(std) when your items are devalued every power creep patches.

Playing leagues for what reason when next league ur stashed items are dogshit already.

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MullaXul wrote:

PvP low nor high level isn't going to have a continual appeal to most people. Given the sheer fact it's just like fighting game communities, people habitually pick the cheesiest laziest win button shit they generally can. When that gets fixed, if ever.....they vanish for a while until they resurface with something else. They wear a mask of bull shit all over their face so when confronted they can easily downplay it or ignore facts. Yes that's part of competition I suppose, to find the strongest stuff you can so you have to put in as little effort to win. But it just clearly feels different when you're dealing with games where balance is constantly neglected until months,years,forever down the road. It's also very much the trend and if you think it isn't you're putting on that same face mask right now.


PvP is more interesting in a non structured open platform. Like expressing hostility on a group of people in Diablo2. I have nothing against structured formats but it amplifies the issues of balance when you're playing a game of rock paper scissors and the guy has bomb.

You know it's a big deal when Mulla is being reasonable and eloquent.

He's right though, a lot of this thing about using overpowered lazy shit is "well <other broken thing> exists, so this is okay!". Seen it with people using Explosive Arrow when it was at its worst; it was okay to use that because Scorching Ray is a thing!

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MullaXul wrote:

PvP low nor high level isn't going to have a continual appeal to most people. Given the sheer fact it's just like fighting game communities, people habitually pick the cheesiest laziest win button shit they generally can. When that gets fixed, if ever.....they vanish for a while until they resurface with something else. They wear a mask of bull shit all over their face so when confronted they can easily downplay it or ignore facts. Yes that's part of competition I suppose, to find the strongest stuff you can so you have to put in as little effort to win. But it just clearly feels different when you're dealing with games where balance is constantly neglected until months,years,forever down the road. It's also very much the trend and if you think it isn't you're putting on that same face mask right now.


PvP is more interesting in a non structured open platform. Like expressing hostility on a group of people in Diablo2. I have nothing against structured formats but it amplifies the issues of balance when you're playing a game of rock paper scissors and the guy has bomb.

I miss the days of Diablo 2 where people could create or join games from a list of channels. Then stand at the edge of town and hostile each other to PvP or watch on the sidelines. It gave some open world feel to it and I wished PoE had gone with a similar format.

Early on in cutthroat you could invade instances. Though hideouts and the entire map system completely negates that possibility. Even if it was a thing it would be worthless once anyone got to end game which is where we would want to PvP....ya I said it, fuck LLD. Anyways there's obviously people that want to PvP around here, there is still that discord PT created too. Though even within this community like I already stated we experience blatant bull shitting. That structured PvP we all attempted earlier this year? I don't even remember anymore. Constantly was neutering everything about the game in an attempt to even the field. Though where did we end up? Bow/Caster cheesy dominance...imagine that.

For the record I don't want melee to 1 shot 7 people at once or to face tank retard style. I never once said melee sucked, the rest of the game is catering to twats and that's why we have dominance in the laziest areas imaginable. Also most people weren't around when this game was alpha/beta and we were PvPing. People in this community actually thought sitting idle with Molten Shell, Tempest Shield and holding down attack while you had 600%+ critical multiplier, Flicker Striking for 1 shots with 800%+ multipliers or simply having Righteous Fire on and walking toward someone was good PvP if that tells you anything. We're long past that obviously given that GGG finally introduced items with good design that could counter such trash but still nothings taken away from the dominance of AoE skills overlapping yet. Instead traps/mines became the new troll face.

Pvp in arpgs has never been about the skill of the players just fyi. 95% of the outcome of any match in any arpg is determined by builds (or whatever the variable is called in a game)

It is the illusion of player skill mattering that makes pvp good in an arpg. Poe doesn't do this very well at the moment and to be fair it never has.

What poe does quite well is that it provides a lot of options to build characters. Sadly that alone is not enough which can be seen from the player base of 10 (ten).


Anyways even in this horrible state of balance, pvp could still be a thing in poe with one very simple change. Make pvp more accessible. Match the amount of queues with the amount of players. With the current 10 players, start with 1 hour of active queue time on a weekend. Tadaa we have an active scene all of a sudden.

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lapiz wrote:

Pvp in arpgs has never been about the skill of the players just fyi. 95% of the outcome of any match in any arpg is determined by builds (or whatever the variable is called in a game)

It is the illusion of player skill mattering that makes pvp good in an arpg. Poe doesn't do this very well at the moment and to be fair it never has.

What poe does quite well is that it provides a lot of options to build characters. Sadly that alone is not enough which can be seen from the player base of 10 (ten).


Anyways even in this horrible state of balance, pvp could still be a thing in poe with one very simple change. Make pvp more accessible. Match the amount of queues with the amount of players. With the current 10 players, start with 1 hour of active queue time on a weekend. Tadaa we have an active scene all of a sudden.

I echo what lapiz said.
Something else to add is that at least in the past 3 months, there have been many new builds coming up to counter what was previously thought uncounterrable.
- Take for example, Johnson’s howa lightning striker. Incredible success for melee. With few more tweaks, can even take down many miners.
- Take for example, Aaliah’s purifying flame miner, he really was able to counter BL trappers in 1v1 close quarters through careful positioning (this does require game sense and player skill).
- Take for example, Johnson’s recent self cast volatile dead. He resurrected this EVEN after enormous damage penalties. Currently, it is annihilating any trapper/miner.
- And of course the arakali spider build. Insanely mobile, but counterrable. It forces fat content gc miners like me to change my playstyle and supports.

These builds do seem cheesy, but they aren’t like the 35 chaos builds either. They require some important gear choices. And many more ways to skin a cat too, in terms of making these builds work.
And what relith said about tanks, absolutely gg tanks out there, looking at you deepwater and lapiz.

Trapper and miners can no longer be fat ass complacent spoiled brats ;)