[3.20] Ice Dancing Queen - Icestorm/Cyclone/CI - Viable For Everything
" With 15k ES, Ascendant will leech up to 4500/sec (30% of your max ES) and this value can go up to 5850/sec with Watcher's Eye with % ES recovery at 30 value. I want to see him in deep Delve and even vs. a deep Delve Aul, will not post last league videos of me going around 1200 cause i was "overgeared" also in that league:) But this is Kelvynn's video from last league going at 1000 depth with only 11.700K ES and gear way worse than mine. https://youtu.be/DYFpR34OrV8 Last edited by lilianmarius on Jan 12, 2020, 12:20:21 AM
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" I kinda agree with your conclusion, but not with the reasoning behind it. When I look at the ascendant version, all I see going for it is more pure INT stacking and thus a slightly higher ES pool. When we talk about effective life, all the defensive layers need to be taken into account. On your slam example, for instance, I have a 66% physical damage reduction from armour + endu charges. I wouldn't take 66% less damage because of damage reduction calculations, but for sure I wouldn't eat a full 14k slam - it would be at the 5-6k ballpark. The scion version has 0 armour/phys damage reduction and no endurance charges. Block is the same thing. It's entropy based, so it's 100% not what I lean on. I have 30% attack and 10% spell block at all times, with a boost to 75% attack block with a 33% uptime. That's nothing to sneeze at. 2% more max res also mean more ele damage mitigation. Guardian also provides stun immunity and ailments protection. Chaos res: atm the only reason I didn't gear any chaos res is because I have balanced resistances for wise oak. There is PLENTY of room for it to get to 0 or even more. I just can't be bothered because its irrelevant. |
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" Armor is almost useless for VERY high hits. The endurance charges do help however. If you are sitting on 10,000 armor, at most that can reduce a hit 1/10th of it's value. Or 1000. I did forget to calculate the endurance charges (4% each) however, or the flat reduction from Soul of Steel. (5%) That would be a total of 18% reduction. So if you were to eat a 14,000k hit, you would feel 10,480 of it with those layers. Congrats you lived! Now you have to quickly recover your ES! In this example Soul of Steel is worth 7/10th of your entire armor value. Armor badly needs a rework. From the Wiki "armour will never prevent more damage than its value divided by 10 (e.g. 1000 armour will never prevent more than 100 damage)" Where the armor DOES help you is the chip damage from the adds... So a metamorph nails you for 11k damage with a stupid OP slam... your armor value helps keep the adds from tearing up your remaining 1000 hp faster than you can recover it, and hey, the armor is "free" for guardian so there is that. Last edited by Breken on Jan 12, 2020, 1:13:00 AM
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Are we just going to gloss over the fact that you are using 15ES as the baseline to measure against? Not unreasonable to obain? Looking at the top ES for Icestorm, there are only like 7 players over 15k ES above level 95.
There are less than 40 above 10k above level 95. In blight, there were less than 15. Across all builds, the amount of characters above 15k ES is like 500+. Without more accurate data, it's hard to say, but I imagine that there aren't tons more less than 95 who have achieved these milestones. And yes, poe.ninja has it's data issues, but it's the only source we have. 10k ES is the tippy top of players who can reasonably achieve that milestone, and that is only if they either farm the currency to do which takes a lot of maps, or if they are doing some money making strategy (flipping, group play, first week market stuff, or RMT - which sadly, I think more people do than you think). Every incremental 1k es push past that is an exponential cost, especially if you have to craft yourself. The budget part matters getting to end game for normal players The argument isn't - which build is better at maxed out gucci 500ex gear, because, who cares. All builds are insane at 500ex spent on it. I can make Chain Hook uber with 500ex. The point is, you aren't getting 15k ES without spending 100+ ex which is not budget. I can't tell for sure what knuckles budget looked like before he stacked everything with Awakener Gems, Bottled Faith, Watchers Eye, etc. AS others have pointed out, a build guide would be good and there is always the potential that his is just as expensive as the Ice Dancing Queen build. What I do know from other builds is that it's generally a lot CHEAPER to use alternative gear to stay layers of defense for EHP (Effective HP) vs Relying on a single defensive stat (ES). Energy Shield just also happens an expensive stat to get. There are just so many options when you are working with more than one defensive layer while leveling. If you have the means to get 15k ES before hitting endgame, you are already in the .01%. If you are using awakeners orbs, hunter exalts, have multiple purchase awakener gems, have traded up your gear 7 times with max corruptions, you are already in the .01%. You are not using a budget build at that point. Which is totally fine. Lot's of people make expensive builds and it's great to showcase that. Good players have already proven you can do all content with low budget builds, so I'm not even sure why 15k hits is the baseline. If you know the mechanics, you can get much farther with less. Just not with a cyclone icestorm build that is ES only. You need $$$ for that. This build does not work lategame until you hit a certain investment. You aren't beating Uber Elder/Sirus 8 on a budget with this build easily. It's not a mobile ranged build, it doesn't have evasion to save your butt, it's not a fast mechanical build. It has no tricks or gimicks to pull you through. If you get his at low ES, you are just dead. It's why I comment on SOME of lilianmarius contributions, because sometimes the comments made are only made through the lens of a 20k ES build. Like - imagine if I was posting how easy T16 juiced red maps were with a Head Hunter. It's silly. Their super later end game knowledge is useful, but like, only useful for .01% of the players who can dump exalts. Last edited by wakasm on Jan 12, 2020, 1:58:57 AM
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" Fun fact, but you are both skipping the main thing which high armor enable. Vaal Molten Shell. Even normal shell will work as a good mitigation on demand, and VMS will turn it into "WTF" mode. | |
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Preface, I agree with wakasm post idea, but...
"And if we delete all managuard supports and HoAG? Str stacking summoner guardians at least spend points for the damage on the tree. "Fun fact, but int stacking builds have very simple ES gearing due to having good %inc ES from int. So we can wear 450ES armor and still reach 8kES w/o any problem. Yes, ES gearing is more expensive due to being superior. And also - we are not relying only on ES and leech, we use blind, defensive curse (or curses), %reductions, chill and optional fortify. I can call this build one of the tankiest which I played (and I played elehit slayer/pf, ED/Cont trickster before shroud nerfs with 6kHP/7kES). "Well, I think that while you say right things about "need some $$$ for endgame" you also forget that this build is working from low currency and can work for that $$$. You can check my character - 3 days of /played, 9-10ex (depends how much you will price that unset) in gear, half of it from constant currency sources which new player can access easily, 1 more lvl and I break 9kES and should be able to beat lvl8 Sirus. Last edited by pda898 on Jan 12, 2020, 2:35:08 AM
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" You are proving my point. You are level 93, 3 days played aka 72 hours, just now hitting around 9k ES after 10ex invested and on the borderline to Sirus 8. Your skill can carry you to a win but it won't be a facetank you can ignore mechanics fight. You are showcasing what a normal player will experience with this build from both how long it takes to accuire gear and currency to how long it takes to get to facetank land (and this league, 9k is not even enough since there is 0 other defensive layers when hit). I guarantee that Illian was at a much higher investment, probably 2x as strong as us, by Sirus 4. (In fact, he has a video showing himself at 11k ES by Sirus 4!) A rich players experience and not indicative of what a typical player will go through. That has been my issue with both Illian, and to a lesser experience, this build. You can find past comments and video showcases about how easy stuff is, then see things like 15k ES or triple the pob damage. Which is fine from a look at what this build maxed point of view but disingenuous from the reality of a normal player seeking help or how to tackle this game. (Ironically at start of league you can find posts of people complaining and quitting this build because they couldn't pay their way to make it feel good early enough as well which is just more evidence of this) There are a lot of budget builds that cost less and would have you Sirus ready by level 85ish. Would you be comfortable farming Uber Elder right now in your current state or would you want that extra 1k? Maybe, I know I wouldn't with this build having played it. Any build with other defensive layers would feel safer at 7k. This build is good when your stats are there, there is no argument. It can be played as a starter. It can farm it's currency. It's just that from an expense point of view, there are no cheaper ways to get it endgame tanky unless you luck out or have advanced money making knowledge. Knucles claims to have found a cheaper way to build a similar build that can make the EHP aspect tankier, earlier and cheaper. If true, that is good news, as an alternative, for a normal player. If true. Even other builds usually have alternative versions that are either the highest DPS version it can achieve or different class versions for budget or popularity reasons, so that people can respect and try different skills. Heck even this build did not start as Ascendant. Last edited by wakasm on Jan 12, 2020, 7:30:07 AM
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" The main issue here is that people are trying to compare my build to a guy who has spent multiple mirrors into his, and as a result simply achieved more ES and more INT stacked. They are not comparing it to the medium player who doesn't spend his entire life in PoE., for whom its undoubtedly easier to pick up 2 Le Heup, one Crown of the Inward Eye, a Shavs that doesn't even need 6L and is ready to go, from mid to endgame. Of course I am minmaxing my own character, because I'm loving my take on the build - but nothing of it is all necessary to gameplay. Whereas the scion version REQUIRES high investment to become even slightly viable. |
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I wish Kelvynn would come here and respond, seeing how some so called "pro players" come here and are bashing his build that is bad, that need a lot of investment to perform, that there are way cheaper variants to kill Sirus with 1 button while face-tanking (why the hell then don't you fkin play those builds if you want all the content done on budget?) and so on.
Nowhere in this guide is saying that this build can do entire content with 4-5 exalts spent, nowhere, but people like you, enjoy throwing dirt over a work of a respectable player that created this and maintained it over the years. When you'll manage to hit at least 5% that Kelvynn reached in his game in his entire PoE experience playing variations of HIS build that HE created (you can check his overview profile and his YouTube channel) then you should come here and cry and whine about how bad this build is. Till then, less talking and more playing, i see that at throwing some wall of posts on forum you are good, you need to get good also at game. I'm sorry to say this, is my last comment in this debate, but i am fed up with your posts and comments towards the capabilities of this build, you guys just suck and suck badly! Last edited by lilianmarius on Jan 12, 2020, 7:45:52 AM
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" I mean, if you are going to misquote people and cherry-pick facts - sure. Almost everyone has said that this build is good when it gets going. That point is just different depending on your ability to amass money. I guess be more butthurt over something that wasn't said. Most of the arguments or bad taste (if any) are against you, your attitude at how you represent this build. If anyone is going to give a newer player a bad perspective of this build, it's you. I can personally find multiple instances, within the last few pages, alone, that people have stated that this build is good, including myself. That doesn't mean it's a perfect build and ALL builds in POE have iterations that should be discussed. If I had the ability, time, and focus (I don't!) to make currency like you, I would at least disclaim that my experience is not going to be like 90% of other players using the same build. Your skill comes from your ability to make currency, which is not a skill 99% of the playerbase has (and is not even related to the build itself). You rarely even acknowledge how far ahead you are. You wait for people to be shocked and point it out for you. (It's all here in the forums). Keylvnn didn't play this build in 3.9. His build went over many iterations between skills, classes, and patches in previous leagues. If he was here, I am sure he'd welcome different viewpoints and even acknowledge what minuses it does have. Maybe even have more to say about them. Endgame this build is stronger this patch but due to Metamorph + Monster Rebalance, before you have the currency to make it that strong, it's more than likely not as smooth as 3.8. Even his showcase video is showing a 9.5k ES version that if facing the same mods + guardian today would more than likely take longer and give more trouble, like his minotaur showcase fight. If anything - this build is the perfect showcase of what rewarding feels like, because if you take the time to stick with it, you get to fully experience the difficulty curve, unlike say, a cheap summon build in the current meta. It's probably why you are so defensive over it. But all players are bad if they have an opinion, even if their opinion also comes from many hours played in the game. I mean, it's not like any of us ALSO played this build this league as well and had to find ways to push it without the extra currency. /s Last edited by wakasm on Jan 12, 2020, 8:17:04 AM
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