[3.21] Vatinas' Spiders + HoP Guardian - CI, 70K armour, 1400 ES on block, millions of DPS

Hello Vatinas,

I love your build too! It is great with the impressive mechanics in the defenses and so much funny!

But I wanted to try it a little bit different as I alwaws like it to do. So I switched to Herald of Agony. And then I wanted to try higher numbers for the global defences of stalwaart commander and skin of the lords:

With Aul's Uprising Amulet with Grace and a high Dexterity ring I got manaless Grace and almost all attributes requirements. Then I put on Skin of the Lords including iron reflexes:

Wooow, I stepped from about 49000 Armour to 100000 armor, lvl 93, character Worwina. With flasks up 177000 armour.
So I would ask for your older PoB with the agony crawler and if it's bad to loose Austramentis amulett for Grace with Iron Reflexes?



Sorry for my funny English and best greetings from Berlin!

Survivability is going down for this build, i hope it still works tho

"

Glancing Blows
We've changed Glancing Blows to cause more damage to pass through your block. You now take 65% of damage from blocked hits. The keystone combined with effects that recover life or energy shield on block were providing too much survivability for too little investment.

Was just getting enthusiastic about this build and then I saw the Glancing Blows nerf. That's a whopping 30% more damage passed through :(
Is there a way to get high block/spell block without it?

Hi Vatinas, League ended and wanted to thanks for one heck of an experience!! (obviously in the good way). I didn't have as much time as I wanted to play (couldn't test LL as I wanted to compare), but with this build I manged to get to 96 (and really playing very little as only 26 challenges) and managed to do all content
- Uber Elder (not a breeze but it died, but mainly it was me learning to position in the fight)
- Uber Atziri (kinda dificult actually cause I got one shooted many times)
- Sirius (it lost my respect :P)
- Chayula (almost lost the instance cause of time, but once there....jejejejeje)
- Heart of the Grove (Ohh yeah I killed the league boss in the same league for the first time)
- Two Delve bosses in 83+ (I haven't had the pleasure of meeting Aul yet)
- Cortex (Finally I met this one)
- Elder and Shaper (Easy peasy => Same the guardians)
- Catarina (I could have farm her if I wanted)
- Delved only till 350+ :'(
- T16 100% Delirum (Come here baby!!! Even with the two boses)
- The 3 new labs (Ohh yeah :) )


My opinion on things that are hard to do:
- Alva's Incursions => Not the temple, that is easy, the hard part is manage to clear the room, kill the arquitect AND open the doors. You can do easy one or the other. (unless I'm missing something)
- Casia => I manged to complete one or two times the whole event.
- Legion => One side of the encounter only.

The only thing I wasn't able to finish:
- HoGM : Basically I ended with two exiles left that were unkillable, so maybe some light into it will be great (or confirm that we can't kill them)
1) TheSpiderQueenByDemi
2) Imthehamster (or something like this) RF / ES insane regen (or maybe block)

The only thing I didn't get time to test I think:
- The Simulacrum (but i think there should be no prob)

About mapping:
Only mods that make things a little hard to map (but not imposible)
- Less Block / Armour
- Can't regen mana (very hard to keep mana up with the worms flask alone)

Just wanted to give a little feedback on how I felt the build.

Also I was worried about the same thing that was posted before. Glancing Blows being nerfed, I do expect the damage probably will be mitigated most of the time, but I guess that we are a little more prone to die if we receive enough dmg, but just a little more I think. I do expect the build is still viable but will probably will need to play more actively. I know you always mention that you don't like one button builds, but to be honest most of the time I could play the content of a map with no hands. I was able to scratch my head while on bosses... :D ( don't get mad at me ;) )

Hi, I am looking at league starting this build next league, and with the changes to glancing blows in the balance manifesto, I quickly made a variant which achieves near block cap without it.

https://pastebin.com/FDCbnmfF

This is probably not optimal and I am not sure if it is worth it, as to get to the block values, I needed to use rumi's concoction, a spell block discipline watchers eye, swap out astramentis and shaper's touch for influenced rares, lose vulnerability on hit from gloves as a result, change the anoint to deflection, remove increased duration for tempest shield, and swap the small cluster for a block one (the notable is probably not optimal, so that could be changed).

The primary problem I feel is a loss of quality of life and easy gearing, as getting to block cap normally will be a defensive gain overall, but it loses the increased duration and skill effect duration for the duration skills, which could make the build much worse to play, which is unavoidable if I want to keep the damage skills. This could be solved with a corruption giving block or one of the auras, but that would be an additional higher end cost. The other problem is the requirement of a spell block watchers eye and block rares to get close enough to cap, which increases the cost, as the items would also need to have defensive stats comparable to the replaced uniques. As well the build relies on a rumis concoction for block, making the block unreliable.

This all may change after patch notes, if any block sources are changed.

I would be happy for any comments on this and for anyone with experience with the build to try and improve it.

Hi everyone! :)

I saw the nerf to Glancing Blows, and I'm 100% sure we'll be fine.

I think, in general, people are too focused on what is nerfed/buffed, and not enough on what is being targeted. In this case, what is being targeted is obviously people who only got a bit of block and some life/ES on block as a percentage of their life/ES (mostly necromancers). In a way, these builds "misused" the keystone - not in the sense that they were wrong! In the sense that they used it in a way that wasn't intended, and made them too strong.

But this build, I think, uses Glancing Blows exactly how it was supposed to be used. We invest a *lot* in ES on block (1400 ES on block, with very high resistances and physical damage reduction, compared to around 350 max without phys damage reduction for necros). So yes, we will take more damage from blocked hits, but hits weren't even close to killing us in the first place. The worst consequence, in my opinion, will be that we might need molten shell + a granite flask to tank an A8 Sirus meteor, but that should be it.

Another way to look at things would be that if ES could go above our max, we would probably see it skyrocket 99% of the time. We gain a *lot* more ES on block than we lose, so taking a larger portion of damage most likely won't hurt us that much.

Either way, if you want to wait to see how it actually feels before building, feel free to do so, I will still league start with that build, so I'll tell you asap. :)


As for your other messages, know that I read everything, even if I can't answer everything in detail ;) I will answer a message in particular though:

"

Tooks64 wrote:

Hi, I am looking at league starting this build next league, and with the changes to glancing blows in the balance manifesto, I quickly made a variant which achieves near block cap without it.

https://pastebin.com/FDCbnmfF

This is probably not optimal and I am not sure if it is worth it, as to get to the block values, I needed to use rumi's concoction, a spell block discipline watchers eye, swap out astramentis and shaper's touch for influenced rares, lose vulnerability on hit from gloves as a result, change the anoint to deflection, remove increased duration for tempest shield, and swap the small cluster for a block one (the notable is probably not optimal, so that could be changed).

The primary problem I feel is a loss of quality of life and easy gearing, as getting to block cap normally will be a defensive gain overall, but it loses the increased duration and skill effect duration for the duration skills, which could make the build much worse to play, which is unavoidable if I want to keep the damage skills. This could be solved with a corruption giving block or one of the auras, but that would be an additional higher end cost. The other problem is the requirement of a spell block watchers eye and block rares to get close enough to cap, which increases the cost, as the items would also need to have defensive stats comparable to the replaced uniques. As well the build relies on a rumis concoction for block, making the block unreliable.

This all may change after patch notes, if any block sources are changed.

I would be happy for any comments on this and for anyone with experience with the build to try and improve it.

That sounds interesting for sure! One think you could keep in mind is that if you don't have Glancing Blows, not having 75/75 block should be fine, as long as you're not too low. We try our hardest to reach at least 70/70 in this build because GB makes us take some damage on block, but if you don't use GB, you have more freedom. :)

That being said, I think your variant is interesting for sure! You don't lose any damage, your ES is still more than enough, and your armour is good too! For your gearing issues, I think it should be fine; for instance, gloves with ES and block shouldn't be too expensive (and this build is impossible in SSF anyway :p). Watcher's Eyes with spell block are cheap too (relatively to the average Eye I mean).

The loss of duration will be a pain, yeah, we'll have to see how it feels. :) I'm still planning to build my variant, with GB, but if you try yours and want to keep me updated or want a hand in your experiments, let me know!

"

Vatinas wrote:

"

Tooks64 wrote:

Hi, I am looking at league starting this build next league, and with the changes to glancing blows in the balance manifesto, I quickly made a variant which achieves near block cap without it.

https://pastebin.com/FDCbnmfF

This is probably not optimal and I am not sure if it is worth it, as to get to the block values, I needed to use rumi's concoction, a spell block discipline watchers eye, swap out astramentis and shaper's touch for influenced rares, lose vulnerability on hit from gloves as a result, change the anoint to deflection, remove increased duration for tempest shield, and swap the small cluster for a block one (the notable is probably not optimal, so that could be changed).

The primary problem I feel is a loss of quality of life and easy gearing, as getting to block cap normally will be a defensive gain overall, but it loses the increased duration and skill effect duration for the duration skills, which could make the build much worse to play, which is unavoidable if I want to keep the damage skills. This could be solved with a corruption giving block or one of the auras, but that would be an additional higher end cost. The other problem is the requirement of a spell block watchers eye and block rares to get close enough to cap, which increases the cost, as the items would also need to have defensive stats comparable to the replaced uniques. As well the build relies on a rumis concoction for block, making the block unreliable.

This all may change after patch notes, if any block sources are changed.

I would be happy for any comments on this and for anyone with experience with the build to try and improve it.

That sounds interesting for sure! One think you could keep in mind is that if you don't have Glancing Blows, not having 75/75 block should be fine, as long as you're not too low. We try our hardest to reach at least 70/70 in this build because GB makes us take some damage on block, but if you don't use GB, you have more freedom. :)

That being said, I think your variant is interesting for sure! You don't lose any damage, your ES is still more than enough, and your armour is good too! For your gearing issues, I think it should be fine; for instance, gloves with ES and block shouldn't be too expensive (and this build is impossible in SSF anyway :p). Watcher's Eyes with spell block are cheap too (relatively to the average Eye I mean).

The loss of duration will be a pain, yeah, we'll have to see how it feels. :) I'm still planning to build my variant, with GB, but if you try yours and want to keep me updated or want a hand in your experiments, let me know!

Thanks for the feedback, I was mainly making it as a worse case scenario in case you felt the nerfs meant the build wasn't good, and as an interesting challenge.
I think I will start on your glancing blows variant, as it functions on much lower investment, and once I get more currency, I may transition it to my non glancing blows variant, as I want to see if it can work without needing rumi's up. One change I may try in the build is swapping the carrion golem to arena master spectres, as that could save a gem socket for increased duration or another aura.

"

Tooks64 wrote:

Thanks for the feedback, I was mainly making it as a worse case scenario in case you felt the nerfs meant the build wasn't good, and as an interesting challenge.
I think I will start on your glancing blows variant, as it functions on much lower investment, and once I get more currency, I may transition it to my non glancing blows variant, as I want to see if it can work without needing rumi's up. One change I may try in the build is swapping the carrion golem to arena master spectres, as that could save a gem socket for increased duration or another aura.

I heard someone mention that, but forgot to try it out during the league; do you think the spectre(s) would survive without minion life regen investment?

Edit: I looked a bit into it, and saw that it grants a decent amount of attack, cast, and movement speed, which would be great. Also, their AI looks good, and they have a ranged attack, which would mean easy Feeding Frenzy procs. But, on top of the life regen thingy, what gems were you thinking? Raise Spectre - Feeding Frenzy - Blood magic? (I very rarely play with support spectres, so I'm not sure how to go about this :p)

Hello,

I didn't play the last 2 leagues but I thought about trying out your build next league. I went over the build, and did some tries in standard.

I have been thinking about some links and was thinking if you go for the arena master spectres in a dual link and maybe go Cast when stunned + desecrate + Spirit Offering + Molten Shell.

Wouldn't the loss of duration be less of an issue then since you proc the buffs automatically. I am just not sure how consistent the uptime on the buffs would be.

It would also free up a possible gem socket. This is only theoretical thinking, since I haven't played the build myself yet.

"

Vatinas wrote:

"

Tooks64 wrote:

Thanks for the feedback, I was mainly making it as a worse case scenario in case you felt the nerfs meant the build wasn't good, and as an interesting challenge.
I think I will start on your glancing blows variant, as it functions on much lower investment, and once I get more currency, I may transition it to my non glancing blows variant, as I want to see if it can work without needing rumi's up. One change I may try in the build is swapping the carrion golem to arena master spectres, as that could save a gem socket for increased duration or another aura.

I heard someone mention that, but forgot to try it out during the league; do you think the spectre(s) would survive without minion life regen investment?

Edit: I looked a bit into it, and saw that it grants a decent amount of attack, cast, and movement speed, which would be great. Also, their AI looks good, and they have a ranged attack, which would mean easy Feeding Frenzy procs. But, on top of the life regen thingy, what gems were you thinking? Raise Spectre - Feeding Frenzy - Blood magic? (I very rarely play with support spectres, so I'm not sure how to go about this :p)

I don't have too much knowledge either, but from what I have seen they don't seem to need anything like blood magic, so I was considering using the gem socket for something else, possibly a 2nd movement skill or moving gems around to fit tempest shield into the increased duration setup, or possibly I may see if I could fit one of the new area control skills like void sphere for utility.
But I won't really know what works until I try, so I will probably mess around with the utility links :)