[3.21] Vatinas' Spiders + HoP Guardian - CI, 70K armour, 1400 ES on block, millions of DPS

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Tooks64 wrote:

I have been looking at some of the reworked skills, and I feel that vitality may be worth running if there is a free slot for a gem, because at level 20, it woud give us an additional ~250 regen per second, which you noted is the build's biggest weakness. It could be run by changing the anoint to champion of the cause for the reduced reservation, or by running an enlighten with discipline and determination. This could help push our regen up to better combat degens, and I think the 2nd alternate quality gives some damage on full life, which I think may work with the minions.

I am considering this if arena masters don't require a 2nd support gem, as I would have 1 socket free. I am wondering if the additional regen is worth the increased cost of losing the current anoint, and using a more expensive one, or if it is not significant enough to matter, or if there are better options.

It's indeed much better than it used to be, but I don't think I will be using it in the guide. There are a lot of mechanics at play, and it's important to me to make the build as smooth to play as possible, and I think that losing skill effect duration on Spiders, Molten Shell, the Offering and the Warcry would feel too bad, to me at least. That being said, if you manage to squeeze it in (with a 2L spectre, like you said, for instance), that could definitely be interesting! ;)

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xHearte wrote:

Super excited to try this build out for Heist. Love how detailed it is, how fast you updated with 3.12 and how much communication you've had with people discussing it. Can't wait!

Thank you so much! It means a lot :) I'm putting a lot of time into this build, the guide, and the thread, so it's great to know people are enjoying it ^^


Also, we just hit 100 pages, woot woot! I never thought this weird idea of mine would get this popular. Thanks again to everyone playing it and who have helped improve it, and are still helping to improve it <3 Luv u all xoxo

I have been thinking about the Spectre idea.

What about anointing for an extra spectre

In my HoA Guardian build I used Raise Spectre + Feeding Frenzy + Meatshield

The behaviour cancels each other out.

As spectres maybe 2 Arena masters and the Baranite Cleric (Baranite cleric has 20% physical damage added as extra lightning damage aura.) Will depend how easy you can keep them alive.

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Vatinas wrote:

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Tooks64 wrote:

I have been looking at some of the reworked skills, and I feel that vitality may be worth running if there is a free slot for a gem, because at level 20, it woud give us an additional ~250 regen per second, which you noted is the build's biggest weakness. It could be run by changing the anoint to champion of the cause for the reduced reservation, or by running an enlighten with discipline and determination. This could help push our regen up to better combat degens, and I think the 2nd alternate quality gives some damage on full life, which I think may work with the minions.

I am considering this if arena masters don't require a 2nd support gem, as I would have 1 socket free. I am wondering if the additional regen is worth the increased cost of losing the current anoint, and using a more expensive one, or if it is not significant enough to matter, or if there are better options.

It's indeed much better than it used to be, but I don't think I will be using it in the guide. There are a lot of mechanics at play, and it's important to me to make the build as smooth to play as possible, and I think that losing skill effect duration on Spiders, Molten Shell, the Offering and the Warcry would feel too bad, to me at least. That being said, if you manage to squeeze it in (with a 2L spectre, like you said, for instance), that could definitely be interesting! ;)

I think that I mention that I did annoint champion on the cause instead due the fact that I couldn't afford 20% rings, and about the duration of spiders, cry and offering... well they were times when spiders disapeared before I expected, but I didn't feel critical, even get used to calculate that, even havind to resummon them in the middle of the delve (at the end of the day we don't die that easily 👍🤪 ). Also I didn't have a gloves with vulnerability on hit, so it was always casted manually (that's why I didn't have my golem on CWS and couldn't cast it manually), the point being is that maybe that is an alternate way to do things that are also smooth to consider, with punishment instead of vulnerability and maybe a mark insteaed of golem... (if you can have both or annoint whispers of doom maybe if you can't cast both) could be spectres instead of deathmark for hop, I'm not sure which deathmark I actually casted having both, but all minions go to the marked enemy, that can help sending spectres to attack while summoning spiders..... ideas ideas ideas 😉

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What about anointing for an extra spectre

In my opinion the extra time on spider duration is way better than pretty much everything else. Even with Potency of Will anointed I find the spiders spawn time a little bit short. These are your main damage and it's annoying when you enter a group of mobs and your spiders despawn.

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Kemmotar1 wrote:

I think that I mention that I did annoint champion on the cause instead due the fact that I couldn't afford 20% rings, and about the duration of spiders, cry and offering... well they were times when spiders disapeared before I expected, but I didn't feel critical, even get used to calculate that, even havind to resummon them in the middle of the delve (at the end of the day we don't die that easily 👍🤪 ). Also I didn't have a gloves with vulnerability on hit, so it was always casted manually (that's why I didn't have my golem on CWS and couldn't cast it manually), the point being is that maybe that is an alternate way to do things that are also smooth to consider, with punishment instead of vulnerability and maybe a mark insteaed of golem... (if you can have both or annoint whispers of doom maybe if you can't cast both) could be spectres instead of deathmark for hop, I'm not sure which deathmark I actually casted having both, but all minions go to the marked enemy, that can help sending spectres to attack while summoning spiders..... ideas ideas ideas 😉

It's great that you managed to find a way to play that you enjoy more! :D That being said, I think I'll stick with my duration anoint (no offense :x). As for the gem replacement, keep in mind that the Feeding Frenzy buff is insanely strong (between 15% and 20% more damage in our case, if I recall, on top of minion movement speed), so I wouldn't take it off the golem. For the curse, one pro of punishment is the explosion, so I think that casting it when stunned wouldn't be reliable enough to enjoy that clearing aspect of it. ^^

And I don't think minions focus the marked enemy (by "marked", I mean "affected by a mark skill" like Poacher's Mark, not Deathmark support which is being renamed Predator). :/

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ezarurazvan wrote:

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What about anointing for an extra spectre

In my opinion the extra time on spider duration is way better than pretty much everything else. Even with Potency of Will anointed I find the spiders spawn time a little bit short. These are your main damage and it's annoying when you enter a group of mobs and your spiders despawn.

I agree, and I would like to add that a third spectre would not be very useful anyway; keep in mind that the spectres need to survive, and aside from the Arena Master that seems to have some innate life regen, the spectres would die easily since we don't invest in minion life or life regen that much (which is why I chose an "easy to summon" minion like the golem in the first place). :)

hi

I have try you build and is very nice to play. but how you get so much damage with HOP I have only around 100k. I have the same gear than you..
and the big difference is with blooddust when I active it in POB I don't have any more DPS i don't understand why...

... sorry for my English if i make some mistakes i'm French

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hisoka450 wrote:

hi

I have try you build and is very nice to play. but how you get so much damage with HOP I have only around 100k. I have the same gear than you..
and the big difference is with blooddust when I active it in POB I don't have any more DPS i don't understand why...

... sorry for my English if i make some mistakes i'm French

Hi :) I'm French too, so if you need more detailed help or don't understand my answers in English, feel free to PM me and I'll answer in French.

There's a lot of stuff you need to turn on in PoB for the damage to appear correct. The offering, Deathmark, Feeding Frenzy, Number of nearby allies (25), 10 poisons on enemy (if you're using Vile Toxins support), 15 withered stacks, Enemy is intimidated. Other than that, a lvl 21 HoP and a lvl 4 Empower are huge in terms of damage.

Last detail, you can add a flask that simulates Rallying Cry like I did in my PoB. Hope that helps :)

Edit: I mistakenly posted a second message here that was identical to the previous one... Sorry :')

Hi, Grave Intentions was mentionned a few times in the thread but never really discussed. On paper it looks really strong : unholy might gives 30% phys as extra chaos. It's like an extra Spirit Offering (~25% more damage acording to PoB)!

In practice it might be a lot less useful since it's only 25% chance to be up for 4 seconds on kill for each minion. We have a lot of minions and we try to get kills ourselves as well... On the other hand we have plenty of worms to feed our minions (at least when mapping).

Do you think it might be worth the 5 point investement ?

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Kereon wrote:

Hi, Grave Intentions was mentionned a few times in the thread but never really discussed. On paper it looks really strong : unholy might gives 30% phys as extra chaos. It's like an extra Spirit Offering (~25% more damage acording to PoB)!

In practice it might be a lot less useful since it's only 25% chance to be up for 4 seconds on kill for each minion. We have a lot of minions and we try to get kills ourselves as well... On the other hand we have plenty of worms to feed our minions (at least when mapping).

Do you think it might be worth the 5 point investement ?

Indeed, Unholy Might is strong as hell, but Grave Intentions is not worth it in my opinion :/ 5 skill points is a lot of investment, and Unholy Might is the only benefit we get from it; if it was a reliable way for minions to gain the buff, we might consider it, but it's only 4 seconds, per minion, and on kill, which means that when it's the most useful - versus bosses - they will never have it. :/ And versus bosses, we want to use our worms to summon spiders, we can't afford to spam our 3 flasks (if we have 3) to spawn 12 worms, to grant 12 of our 25 minions a buff that lasts 4 seconds. :c Sorry!


Update: I added levelling skill trees and end game skill tree progression to the PoB. :)