Thoughts about New Mexico?

"

FarmerTed wrote:

I think that is because you don't live in the US. We have regions where ignorance is a badge of honor. It is not everybody, but it is pervasive.

I suppose if the study of superstition and mysticism can be counted as education, then you would be right, and I shouldn't say it about cultures.

Oh no, we have that here too. I think we might be using the word culture differently, is all; you in a local/ regional sense, or even sub-culture.

"

FarmerTed wrote:

Edit: I realize this was kind of a glib response and deserves a much more nuanced answer. Let me just say that I work at a science company where I am pretty sure a large portion of the employees are unaware of what science is.

Electrickery!

^ For you to think of when you're at this Science Company amongst the medieval types.

I don't understand how people can not find Science interesting. It gets complex, of course, but the basics? Seems a sad lack of curiousity and joy in experimentation.

Why do you think this lack of science knowledge exists where you are?

"

FarmerTed wrote:

Let me just say that I work at a science company where I am pretty sure a large portion of the employees are unaware of what science is.

Before this adventure, I was working for a major science company too as a lab technician. In today's world, if you have up to an undergraduate degree in Chemistry/Biology, you are treated like an idiot and delegated to 1st-world sweat-shop labor tasks that don't require any of the knowledge you learned as an undergraduate.

For example, in the mornings I would open/sort boxes for hours. Then I would perform the same chemical-related robotic/repetitive process that a trained seal would be able to perform. It was even frowned upon/discouraged to dilute your own acid solutions. The company would rather pay extra to buy 50% HCL from the supplier. They treated safety like it was a superstition. When pouring chemicals, I was instructed by this idiot to wear goggles, a face shield, AND to keep the fume hood glass as low as possible. The reality is I couldn't see shit through the three protective layers so I couldn't measure solutions accurately. Was a huge, UNNECESSARY, fucking pain measuring the correct amount. And I was unsafe because I couldn't see how much I was pouring. But it made a "superior" FEEL safe and that is apparently the most important thing at that stupid fucking company. I was even yelled at while transporting chemicals from the stock room back to my lab area b/c I didn't hold the railing with my left hand while climbing the stairs.

The sad reality of science-related industry is that the jobs that require you to have an undergraduate degree to get the job, don't actually require you to use any of the knowledge you learned as an undergraduate.

The only requirements to be good at the job were to 1) be detail-oriented/accurate and 2) be very, very fast so the company can hire as few people as possible and make as much money as possible. The reality is morale was very low and everyone was over-worked and unhappy.

I was told by older co-workers it wasn't like this 20-30 years ago. I think the problem is that the # of people with undergraduate degrees and PhDs is over-saturated. So the jobs you qualify for in today's modern-world are dumb-downed for everyone.

"

erdelyii wrote:

That sounds frustrating for you, and that you value hard work and inquiry, that actual teaching brings meaning to your experience. Is it a time factor or that the student just doesn't want to do the work? Both, I'm guessing, because the parents aren't paying you for 3x hours' sessions, right? Results are all that matter, to reach end goal of X, which isn't about learning at all.

The problem is the student wants to put the least amount of effort to receive a passing grade. These students think completing assignments should be enough for them to pass the class. The student isn't trying to understand the information. Nor is the student sensitive enough to intuitively sense that if he/she focused on actually trying to understand the information, he/she would incidentally receive an A letter grade and would not be struggling in the class anymore.

Instead, the student is stuck trying to navigate through a letter grade byzantine labyrinth.

Hope this makes some kind of sense.

I'm really big into understanding the subject matter and incidentally receiving an A letter grade simply b/c you understand what you are doing. I'm not a fan of the letter grade system/busy-work.

"

coatofarms wrote:

Before this adventure, I was working for a major science company too as a lab technician. In today's world, if you have up to an undergraduate degree in Chemistry/Biology, you are treated like an idiot and delegated to 1st-world sweat-shop labor tasks that don't require any of the knowledge you learned as an undergraduate.

For example, in the mornings I would open/sort boxes for hours. Then I would perform the same chemical-related robotic/repetitive process that a trained seal would be able to perform. It was even frowned upon/discouraged to dilute your own acid solutions. The company would rather pay extra to buy 50% HCL from the supplier. They treated safety like it was a superstition. When pouring chemicals, I was instructed by this idiot to wear goggles, a face shield, AND to keep the fume hood glass as low as possible. The reality is I couldn't see shit through the three protective layers so I couldn't measure solutions accurately. Was a huge, UNNECESSARY, fucking pain measuring the correct amount. And I was unsafe because I couldn't see how much I was pouring. But it made a "superior" FEEL safe and that is apparently the most important thing at that stupid fucking company. I was even yelled at while transporting chemicals from the stock room back to my lab area b/c I didn't hold the railing with my left hand while climbing the stairs.

Wow, that place really knew how to kill your sense of agency and autonomy and bury it in stagnation, huh?

"

coatofarms wrote:

The sad reality of science-related industry is that the jobs that require you to have an undergraduate degree to get the job, don't actually require you to use any of the knowledge you learned as an undergraduate.

The only requirements to be good at the job were to 1) be detail-oriented/accurate and 2) be very, very fast so the company can hire as few people as possible and make as much money as possible. The reality is morale was very low and everyone was over-worked and unhappy.

Which is fine, if there's room for growth and advancement. Sounds like there wasn't.

"

I was told by older co-workers it wasn't like this 20-30 years ago. I think the problem is that the # of people with undergraduate degrees and PhDs is over-saturated. So the jobs you qualify for in today's modern-world are dumb-downed for everyone.

That sounds like an excuse to have a shit work culture. It'd be interesting to find out from them (but good you're no longer there!) if they thought the culture had changed markedly.

"

coatofarms wrote:

The problem is the student wants to put the least amount of effort to receive a passing grade. These students think completing assignments should be enough for them to pass the class. The student isn't trying to understand the information. Nor is the student sensitive enough to intuitively sense that if he/she focused on actually trying to understand the information, he/she would incidentally receive an A letter grade and would not be struggling in the class anymore.

Instead, the student is stuck trying to navigate through a letter grade byzantine labyrinth.

Hope this makes some kind of sense.

I'm really big into understanding the subject matter and incidentally receiving an A letter grade simply b/c you understand what you are doing. I'm not a fan of the letter grade system/busy-work.

Has the student got access to a marking rubric so they can see what is needed for As?

Do they even know that is a thing?

Letter-grade system sorts out the people who can make the most out of Adderal and not crash and burn ten years later as opiate addicts.

How about we educate kids to live well in the world, as well as absorb, synthesise and display a knowledge of important information?

"

coatofarms wrote:

"

FarmerTed wrote:

Let me just say that I work at a science company where I am pretty sure a large portion of the employees are unaware of what science is.

Before this adventure, I was working for a major science company too as a lab technician. In today's world, if you have up to an undergraduate degree in Chemistry/Biology, you are treated like an idiot and delegated to 1st-world sweat-shop labor tasks that don't require any of the knowledge you learned as an undergraduate.

For example, in the mornings I would open/sort boxes for hours. Then I would perform the same chemical-related robotic/repetitive process that a trained seal would be able to perform. It was even frowned upon/discouraged to dilute your own acid solutions. The company would rather pay extra to buy 50% HCL from the supplier. They treated safety like it was a superstition. When pouring chemicals, I was instructed by this idiot to wear goggles, a face shield, AND to keep the fume hood glass as low as possible. The reality is I couldn't see shit through the three protective layers so I couldn't measure solutions accurately. Was a huge, UNNECESSARY, fucking pain measuring the correct amount. And I was unsafe because I couldn't see how much I was pouring. But it made a "superior" FEEL safe and that is apparently the most important thing at that stupid fucking company. I was even yelled at while transporting chemicals from the stock room back to my lab area b/c I didn't hold the railing with my left hand while climbing the stairs.

That sounds truly horrible. I am in a similar situation right now, though not nearly as bad. I develop analytical methods for product analysis, but none of the managers have any analytical experience and may not even have a chemistry degree. I am lucky that my department acknowledges a few of the more experienced chemists to some degree. They still ignore enough stuff to cause major problems. In other departments, decisions that require scientific input are made without consulting anyone knowledgeable. A lot of managers have zero understanding of what their subordinates actually do. It has been getting worse as older people leave/retire and take institutional knowledge with them without passing it on.

There are some companies that are good at science. I worked at a major pharmaceutical company that did its best to challenge employees and let them grow. Unfortunately, the cycle of acquisition followed by lay-offs and site closures got me.

"

erdelyii wrote:

Why do you think this lack of science knowledge exists where you are?

Lots of reasons. Cult of celebrity. Ongoing campaign in this country to discredit science. Lack of money/status in science. Science is a demanding major. Science oriented people are going into computer programming because it pays much better and doesn't necessarily require a degree.

"

FarmerTed wrote:

That sounds truly horrible. I am in a similar situation right now, though not nearly as bad. I develop analytical methods for product analysis, but none of the managers have any analytical experience and may not even have a chemistry degree. I am lucky that my department acknowledges a few of the more experienced chemists to some degree. They still ignore enough stuff to cause major problems. In other departments, decisions that require scientific input are made without consulting anyone knowledgeable. A lot of managers have zero understanding of what their subordinates actually do. It has been getting worse as older people leave/retire and take institutional knowledge with them without passing it on.

There are some companies that are good at science. I worked at a major pharmaceutical company that did its best to challenge employees and let them grow. Unfortunately, the cycle of acquisition followed by lay-offs and site closures got me.

You sound patient, FarmerTed, and that sounds like a frustrating workplace. Hopefully something better will present in good time.

It's a shame that so few managers are good at managing people. I imagine with science, the issues get even more messed-up if managers are hired for management knowledge alone. I can imagine scientists often prefer to not become managers, too.

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FarmerTed wrote:

Lots of reasons. Cult of celebrity. Ongoing campaign in this country to discredit science. Lack of money/status in science. Science is a demanding major. Science oriented people are going into computer programming because it pays much better and doesn't necessarily require a degree.

Out of those, ongoing campaign in this country to discredit science is something I am hearing more often. What would you do to combat this?

"

erdelyii wrote:

You sound patient, FarmerTed, and that sounds like a frustrating workplace. Hopefully something better will present in good time.

It's a shame that so few managers are good at managing people. I imagine with science, the issues get even more messed-up if managers are hired for management knowledge alone. I can imagine scientists often prefer to not become managers, too.

I imagine a lot of scientists realize they are not good managers, but I have worked in a few companies that spent the time training people how to manage. They were usually pretty decent companies. At this age, I am not really looking for something better. Building a reputation that allows you to be more than a cog takes time, and I am just not that interested anymore. I could retire today, but it would be financially tight and I would have to figure out healthcare. Right now, I am just padding my retirement accounts.

"

erdelyii wrote:

"

FarmerTed wrote:

Lots of reasons. Cult of celebrity. Ongoing campaign in this country to discredit science. Lack of money/status in science. Science is a demanding major. Science oriented people are going into computer programming because it pays much better and doesn't necessarily require a degree.

Out of those, ongoing campaign in this country to discredit science is something I am hearing more often. What would you do to combat this?

Education is the only way to combat ignorance, but that requires people to take initiative and put forth effort. There are a lot of reasons why this won't happen, but the bottom line is it is way easier to just believe what a confident authority figures proclaims. Simple messages drown out reason when both are set to equal volume.

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FarmerTed wrote:

I imagine a lot of scientists realize they are not good managers, but I have worked in a few companies that spent the time training people how to manage. They were usually pretty decent companies. At this age, I am not really looking for something better. Building a reputation that allows you to be more than a cog takes time, and I am just not that interested anymore. I could retire today, but it would be financially tight and I would have to figure out healthcare. Right now, I am just padding my retirement accounts.

Ah, you're that far along with things. Hopefully not too much longer then until you can say goodbye to working for a wage.

"

FarmerTed wrote:

Education is the only way to combat ignorance, but that requires people to take initiative and put forth effort. There are a lot of reasons why this won't happen, but the bottom line is it is way easier to just believe what a confident authority figures proclaims. Simple messages drown out reason when both are set to equal volume.

Plus, social media.

Ok guys. I've decided I'm going to visit California next week. I should visit at least two States before I decide which one to move to. Last time I was in California was road-trip with parents when I was like 11. Should be fun and interesting. I'm going to start out in San Diego. Going to find some time to visit Los Angeles too.

Last time I dipped my toes in an Ocean was when I was a teenager. I'm looking forward to doing that again. Also excited about 60 degree weather!

Anyone know a good Mountain around that area I should climb?

Have a good trip, get some good research done, and enjoy the ocean coatofarms - nothing like returning to the sea after a long time away :)

No idea about mountains there, maybe someone will have one before you head off, otherwise you'll find a good one to climb.

Thanks erdelyii