Hey man, The Pefect Form has always been my favorite item in the game and I was able to find your build through poe.ninja and discovered that the tankfinder has everything I ever wanted in a character. I actually learned a lot of new things about the game through your build and thought that Daresso’s courage + Rumi’s Concotion on a pathfinder is absolutely genius. I love the tank theme of the build but not so much the freeze side of things. Mainly since it’s a rule of mine that I never build around elemental ailments, curses, golems, or other inconsistent unreliable stuff that pads numbers on PoB and I absolutely must triple balance wise oak on every single character for endgame boss killing.
I was able to refine the build to achieve way more survivability and way more reliable damage by dropping the cold/freeze theme and instead building the character in a way that would allow me to sustain righteous fire indefinitely even on single target and uber elder. With a multimodded scepter, amulet, and rings I am currently sitting at over 1.2 million sustained shaper dps on PoB and 5.8k health (using a Devoto’s but hoping to buy a Starkonja’s Head soon which would put me at over 6.1k). With regards to physical mitigation, taste of hate grants 7.5% more physical damage reduction through damage shift over my own damage shift setup, but with permanent endurance charges, some armor on gear, and some armor on the tree I am sitting at 61% generic physical damage reduction without molten shell up.
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In regards to "elemental ailments being unreliable"
The chill and freeze in the build is reliable, it's been built that way.
I disagree that elemental ailments are an unreliable mechanic to build around.
In regards to "refined the build" and "increased it's survivability"
You have forgone 30% reduced cold damage....to balance a wise oak for 15% reduced cold damage......? And lost the entirety of your physical mitigation via the physical taken as cold mod from ToH as well as reduced your overall evasion rating AND taken permanent blind out of the build.
With arctic armour trail, cold snap chilled ground and large amounts of %chacne to freeze, that alone ensure that ANY target is permanently chilled, let alone from discrete damage taken values applying chill and freeze.
Because you haven't specialised your damage into a single element, you have diluted the numerical weight of the points you have access to invest into on the tree by only giving you access to 10% generic elemental or generic damage nodes on the whole bar a few specialised nodes if you choose to take them, this is opposed to 15% cold nodes, which even at 90% conversion is more efficient than 100% conversion mixed damage nodes.
It also means you have to now penetrate 2 resistances, this compounds the problem of only having access to lower value nodes from the tree as now even less of that damage is able to be expressed on high resist targets, which really are the only context where look at damage values actually matters.
I'm not saying mixed damage types are a bad thing, but there is a time and a place, more specifically, there is an Ascendancy and gear choice for that kind of setup, I dont' feel this is one of them.
Because you have taken ToH out of the build, you have had to solve physical mitigation with Both a Watchers eye AND an Aura choice, which is an enormous opportunity cost.
I disagree with most if not all of the changes you have made, and the loss of freeze and corpse destruction is another significant drop in defences.
You PoB shows, damage coming out lower, HP coming out lower, no reliability of Freeze or chill, no bone chill multiplier, your evasion rating will be significantly lower, you are shoe-horning an aggressive degen into a build for a 40% more multiplier, spreading your damage across multiple elements means you are not only diluting the statistical power of nodes available to you, but also blunting that damage on high resist targets via a need for spread penetration.
If it works for you then that's awesome, but with a statement like "I was able to refine the build to achieve way more survivability" I really disagree.
Simply put, I just really don’t like hatred as an aura or taste of hate as a flask. I also already did the math, and I can say with confidence that my damage, consistency, and damage mitigation is far superior concerning the endgame at least.
Spoiler
100 – 30 + (30 x .25 x .64) = 74.8
25.2% reduced physical damage from damage shift
100 – 22 + (22 x .25 x .79) = 82.345
17.655% reduced physical damage from damage shift
PoB puts you at 34% physical damage reduction and puts you at 42% with taste of hate up. PoB has me at 55% physical damage reduction and puts me at 61% with the watcher’s eye…
I am sitting at 50% evade chance without the perfect form taste of hate interaction. You are sitting at 49% evade chance with… Even though I highly doubt that your build will get one shot by anything, I am not willing to give you the benefit of the doubt that blind will give you a permanent 25% evade chance. If you’re fighting uber elder focusing one of the bosses and the other hits you from outside of your screen, they’re more than likely not chilled from AA or pandemonius and therefore you do not have 74% evade chance. In fact, I would even consider the chill effects from pandemonius on boss fights to be completely trivial or entirely useless on uber elder or any endgame boss for that matter considering its on and off periods in lieu of all the other layers of defense. Easy hypothermia damage though right? I also don’t think that freezing or shattering trash packs matter anyways, considering that both characters are essentially immortal and can one shot everything in maps anyways; unless yours isn’t without the freezes and shatters.
If you really want to bring up opportunity costs, my build is in fact substantially more durable as a result of my watcher’s eye and vitality, something you won’t be able to achieve with hatred. I can see on PoB that taste of hate and hatred does wonders for the build, but it’s still not competitive with the compromises that I have made regarding the watcher’s eye, atziri’s promise, and the other sources of added as extra.
While I do agree that by grabbing all the cold damage nodes on the tree you get more value for each point, your build tends to suffer from diminishing returns by going all in on cold damage and penetration; whereas I am able to pick up and use way more powerful support gems amongst more diverse ways of scaling to achieve more damage that way. My build has 61% generic elemental penetration, whereas you only have 57% cold penetration and an additional 37% from the cold penetration support gem and 25% from frost bomb if and whenever it’s up. Also, you made the terrible mistake of double dipping the -9% cold resistance from the fossil crafted helmet since its already calculated on the helm yet you decided to subtract an addition 9 from shaper dps anyways…
And as stated earlier, my build isn’t crutched by manually casting cold snap, relying on a CWDT frost bomb for damage, relying on herald of ice to proc frostbite, bonechill, or chill/freeze no matter how reliable you think those things are for bossing. My build can sustain righteous fire indefinitely on all content reliably doing 1.2 million dps with no strings attached aside from the molten shell arcane surge setup every 10 seconds off the gcd. No offense to you or your build, but I have a habit of deleting everything on any PoB that I consider shaper dps padding or nuance things to keep up. Your PoB is sitting at 1.137 million dps but after I disable frostbite and frost bomb (things that I would never rely on for damage in any build) and fixing the helmet issue you are sitting at just under 900k reliable dps… Of course you might think that those things are reliable damage, but it’s just not my style to rely on these sort of gimmicks, especially for boss killing.
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You PoB shows, damage coming out lower, HP coming out lower, no reliability of Freeze or chill, no bone chill multiplier, your evasion rating will be significantly lower, you are shoe-horning an aggressive degen into a build for a 40% more multiplier, spreading your damage across multiple elements means you are not only diluting the statistical power of nodes available to you, but also blunting that damage on high resist targets via a need for spread penetration.
The degen from righteous fire is easily offset by the massive life recovery of the build so much so that its almost impossible for me to notice it. I could even drop my dousing life flask for a dousing sulphur flask and still maintain righteous fire 95% of the time, that's how strong the life recovery of the build is. Also with a level 4 enhance attached to the 20/20 righteous fire its actually a 1.49 more multiple not 1.4. I built the character to achieve 1.2 million sustained shaper dps which is entirely realistic. Thats 33% more damage than your 900k realistic shaper dps. Where in PoB does it show that I do less damage than you? Also, the entire point of my refinements to the tankfinder was so that I don't need to rely on freeze, chill, or blind in any way shape or form on the character since I consider them to be gimmicks on bosses.
Even though I am running elemental focus and not using a pandemonius, with a level 4 enhance and 20/20 increased duration attached to arctic armor, I can create 13.5 second chilled ground patches. Even though chill is useless on bosses anyways, my build can still produce 100% uptime of the chill effect. If I drop added as fire for hypothermia, it would add 10% more damage or 125k dps to the build, which is most probably the next upgrade for the character. Also, I’m lacking life on my helmet and belt. I should easily surpass your health pool whenever I find upgrades. Considering that hrimsorrow is absolutely mandatory for the freezefinder, I could multimod a pair of gloves for a minimum of 40% elemental conversion and still only lose out on 1% overall damage while making room for more life and damage affixes…
The math just works out to outperform and blow the cold theme out of the water, not to mention that I cut out all of the nuance things from the build. On page 18 of the forum post you discussed with someone else about design philosophy and shaper dps padding which I thought was very reasonable until I took a closer look at your PoB. A lot of the build’s design choices falls under the same scrutiny of dps padding and I would say that the numbers you provided are definitely far from realistic whereas mine are.
Cool.
There is so much 'Nope' in that I'm not even bothering. You also obviously haven't read the build guide, nor played the build, nor delved past 500 by the sound of it either.
And there is 0 DPS padding anywhere.
PoB didnt have -9 calculated in at the time of making the build, Delve, when the modifer was new, but it has now been adjusted as PoB seems to have been updated, thank you for pointing out the mistake. I have updated th PoB.
You also come across as a bit of a self rightous arrogant prick, but unfortunately I dont have a build guide for that. I look forward to reading yours.
Best of luck.
Last edited by mfeeney87#3258 on Jan 7, 2019, 5:49:56 PM
Hey, would there be any DPS loss from dropping frostbomb to CWDT range? I understand the initial pulses do no damage and that it's the final pop that does that work. The debuff values it applies are static from what I gather from the wiki. How often and where is the crystal placed when it does trigger? I've never personally played anything with CWDT so I apologize for the silly questions. Thanks
Hey, would there be any DPS loss from dropping frostbomb to CWDT range? I understand the initial pulses do no damage and that it's the final pop that does that work. The debuff values it applies are static from what I gather from the wiki. How often and where is the crystal placed when it does trigger? I've never personally played anything with CWDT so I apologize for the silly questions. Thanks
I don't think it would be drastic, I mainly prefer manual placement for consistancy on bosses. But bacuse it's a melee range build, when a CWDT procs it should be in an effective range if you prefer to use it that way.
If you have it on a low level CWDT, IE - CWDT LvL 1 - Frost bomb LvL 10, it will be up pretty much constantly.
Because the damage threshold will be so low on the CWDT, after the 250ms internal cooldown of CWDT after casting a spell it will be ready to trigger again.
And yep there is no scaling on the actual debuff, so level of gem is not important. Not silly questions at all.
Thank you for the detailed explanation as always. You've made this whole experience very enjoyable. I really do appreciate all the hard work you've put into this and I am looking forward to trying your Pyrophant.
Last edited by SiNTiX_#5267 on Jan 9, 2019, 6:46:34 PM
Thank you for the detailed explanation as always. You've made this whole experience very enjoyable. I really do appreciate all the hard work you've put into this.
There is so much 'Nope' in that I'm not even bothering. You also obviously haven't read the build guide, nor played the build, nor delved past 500 by the sound of it either.
I did actually play the build with all of the cold stuff included and it did exactly what was advertised. At a certain point however I felt that I could take the build way further after tampering a lot in PoB. I did want to give credit where it was due though, since your build inspired me a ton. Alas however I feel that at the character's current stage its definitely strayed far too away from your version.
After upgrading the helm, gloves, and belt I was able to jack the character up to 6.1k life and 77% physical damage reduction while only dropping 9% damage. Also by abusing the soul of arakali pantheon, the build can now actually outregen the righteous fire debuff while in hideout, without leech or life gain on hit, outside of combat. Since I was able to fit an immortal flesh into the build, the -50 on top of the 77% reduced was actually able to push the character to 600+ delve by essentially granting me invulnerability to all the small hits found in delve.
https://pastebin.com/Dy6Nx70f
Your build is definitely good and I thank you for taking the time to check out the PoB and replying. It's just a shame that you're so salty and close minded that you won't admit that I was able to dismantle your build and achieve so much more with it, with the numbers to prove it. Anyways, if you really think that there's nothing to learn from me then its your loss.
First league, this build is outstanding and easy to pick up. Starting at tier 8 maps right now. Still missing the pandemonius, linking my armor and crafting a helm, but I can do content up to now very comfortably.
First league, this build is outstanding and easy to pick up. Starting at tier 8 maps right now. Still missing the pandemonius, linking my armor and crafting a helm, but I can do content up to now very comfortably.
Glad its working! Thanks for taking the time to leave feedback.
