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tenw30d wrote:

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kayella wrote:

Some spectre has a mix of abilities. It might have good projectile spell, but aoe spell is on a long cooldown, so you still need GMP (Scinteel).

Hey Kay, quick question for you...

How are Scinteel spectres for mapping and bossing? I played this build most of 3.10 with redemption sentries and I'm looking into trying a different spectre in 3.11. I've seen some other build guides mention them, one person even said they are the "best" spectre in the game, so I'm curious what your opinion on them is.

In the game, mapping is OK (all spectres are OK actually), but boss killing DPS feels terrible. So if you check poedb the DPS is also low. Here is stats compared to RVA. Both level 82.

Scinteel.
SynthesisSoulstealerProjectileLightning
Deals 847.7 to 2543 Lightning Damage
Cast Time: 1.33 Second
(max dps = 2543 / 1.33 = 1912)

Risen Vaal Advocate:
FireballIncusionLightning
Deals 941 to 2823 Lightning Damage
Cast Time: 1.2 Second
(max dps = 2823 / 1.2 = 2352)

RVA has shorter cast time, more damage. Also it is lightning converted fireball, so you can use Conc Effect (54% more). Scinteel is just 'projectile'.

Scinteel has the laser beam that does a big aoe damage, but the cast time and cooldown is so long. Not reliable it for mapping.

GeometrySpell
SynthesisSoulstealerLaser
Deals 516.2 to 1549 Lightning Damage

Cast Time: 2.5 Second
Cooldown Time: 8 Second


Overall, both spectres need GMP for mapping. RVA has more DPS (1912 vs 2352). Scinteel is tankier 500% life + 200% ES vs 405% life. RVA is much easier to get (temple/delve + permmanent corpse vs memory map + 2s despawn corpse).


I have them saved in my spectre bank in league. If you see me online, you can try them yourself.


Other spectres:

Slave Driver
Flamewhip
Deals 1461 to 4384 Lightning Damage
Cast Time: 1.43
Max dps = 3065


Solar Guard
Fireball
Deals 1574 to 2437 Fire Damage
Cast Time: 0.85
Max dps = 2867


Cannibal Fire-Eater
Fire totem
Deals 702.5 to 1054 Fire Damage
Cast Time: 0.333
Max dps = 3165


Scale of Esh
Arc
Deals 1249 to 2320 Lightning Damage
Cast Time: 0.5
Max dps = 4640

EDIT: My original post has wrong info for RS. Please ignore it. The base DPS is about 3500 in POB (but could be actually 5000).
Redemption Sentry
Default attack
1913.5 25% phys / 75% cold
Attack Time: 1.5
DPS = 1275


RS has low base DPSRS damage scales really well because Hatred aura has 25% phys -> cold & 18% more. And it is easy to abuse with clusters.

Lightning spectres are OK because Wrath has 21% more damage. Can abuse with clusters.

Fire spectres don't scale high like cold or lightning because Anger aura is terrible (140 flat damage). 140 flat is only 5% of SG's fireball. Zealotry is not bad 15% more, but can't abuse clusters.


I made a fire spectre version of my build. It's not as powerful as other spectres because you can't abuse aura stacking, so I stacked double damage chance to 90%. Just import my league main to check it out.

I read Lyends spectre build, and so I tried out the Scinteel Synthites today. I really went all out with everything I could to boost their DPS, using 20/20 gems like Wrath + Zealotry, etc. I even put on Awakened gems where possible. But my conclusion is that they are terrible. I really don't know why he thinks they are good. They have super poor map clear speed, and their single target DPS is even worse.

I tried a bunch of different support gem combinations, and I think that the problem is that it's very difficult to boost ALL of it's attacks. In otherwords, it has some spells, so that spell echo is good, but it also seems to have 2 attacks where spell echo has no effect. Same thing with any of the projectile supports (LMP, slower projectiles, pierce etc) - they work on his main attack, but not on the other 2 attacks. It did help a lot to use Damage on Full Life, that seems to work for all of it's attacks. But otherwise, 2/3rds of his attacks don't seem to benefit from spell echo or projectile supports. Or maybe I'm missing something? But even in Lyends videos they look bad, so idk why he likes them.

hey, Kay, i checked your lvling option that you update recently, and i encountered some problems:
1) Spectres die to Dominus, and sometime to Piety Act3, almost all the time to Piety Act4 and to Malchai, (tested with Fire Eaters and Flame sentinels)
2) Consecrated ground is not enough to sustain minions against some bosses or Delirum stuff (i also had minion life and resists and leech right above templar starting point)

so i want some advice on how to solve the problems.
Are there any high HP spectres you can get?

I also tested a Impale Skellie option that spect later into Spectres, using Infernal Legion SKitterbots for clear, they seem much nicer cuz you can resummon constantly. Ragin spirits feel very bad because, no idea why their damage is so terrible

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kayella wrote:

"

tenw30d wrote:

"

kayella wrote:

Some spectre has a mix of abilities. It might have good projectile spell, but aoe spell is on a long cooldown, so you still need GMP (Scinteel).

Hey Kay, quick question for you...

How are Scinteel spectres for mapping and bossing? I played this build most of 3.10 with redemption sentries and I'm looking into trying a different spectre in 3.11. I've seen some other build guides mention them, one person even said they are the "best" spectre in the game, so I'm curious what your opinion on them is.

In the game, mapping is OK (all spectres are OK actually), but boss killing DPS feels terrible. So if you check poedb the DPS is also low. Here is stats compared to RVA. Both level 82.

Scinteel.
SynthesisSoulstealerProjectileLightning
Deals 847.7 to 2543 Lightning Damage
Cast Time: 1.33 Second
(max dps = 2543 / 1.33 = 1912)

Risen Vaal Advocate:
FireballIncusionLightning
Deals 941 to 2823 Lightning Damage
Cast Time: 1.2 Second
(max dps = 2823 / 1.2 = 2352)

RVA has shorter cast time, more damage. Also it is lightning converted fireball, so you can use Conc Effect (54% more). Scinteel is just 'projectile'.

Scinteel has the laser beam that does a big aoe damage, but the cast time and cooldown is so long. Not reliable it for mapping.

GeometrySpell
SynthesisSoulstealerLaser
Deals 516.2 to 1549 Lightning Damage

Cast Time: 2.5 Second
Cooldown Time: 8 Second


Overall, both spectres need GMP for mapping. RVA has more DPS (1912 vs 2352). Scinteel is tankier 500% life + 200% ES vs 405% life. RVA is much easier to get (temple/delve + permmanent corpse vs memory map + 2s despawn corpse).


I have them saved in my spectre bank in league. If you see me online, you can try them yourself.


Other spectres:

Slave Driver
Flamewhip
Deals 1461 to 4384 Lightning Damage
Cast Time: 1.43
Max dps = 3065


Solar Guard
Fireball
Deals 1574 to 2437 Fire Damage
Cast Time: 0.85
Max dps = 2867


Cannibal Fire-Eater
Fire totem
Deals 702.5 to 1054 Fire Damage
Cast Time: 0.333
Max dps = 3165


Scale of Esh
Arc
Deals 1249 to 2320 Lightning Damage
Cast Time: 0.5
Max dps = 4640


Redemption Sentry
Default attack
1913.5 25% phys / 75% cold
Attack Time: 1.5
DPS = 1275


RS has low base DPS, but Hatred aura has 25% phys -> cold & 18% more, so the damage scales well. And it is easy to abuse with clusters.

Lightning spectres are OK because Wrath has 21% more damage. Can abuse with clusters.

Fire spectres don't scale high like cold or lightning because Anger aura is terrible (140 flat damage). 140 flat is only 5% of SG's fireball. Zealotry is not bad 15% more, but can't abuse clusters.


I made a fire spectre version of my build. It's not as powerful as other spectres because you can't abuse aura stacking, so I stacked double damage chance to 90%. Just import my league main to check it out.

That list seems to be completely wrong. I know the numbers are from Poe DB, but I was curious because ingame Redemption Sentries have faster boss killing times than Slave Drivers and Esh, like by alot! And its not just Hatred.

Turns out, when you add Slave Drivers aswell as Redemption Sentries in PoB with a lvl 20 raise spectre gem with a blank tree-page, Redemption Sentries are far ahead in terms of dps and average hit damage.

At gem lvl 24, or Spectre lvl 82, Slave Drivers have an average hit of ~2900 which is about what the DB page states.

Redemption Sentries however have ~3755 average Hit at the same lvl on their Default Attack, yet poe db states 1913 base damage. Looking at different spectre pages and numbers I noticed this line: "active_skill_damage_+%_final [1]" is the only thing that Redemptions have, that the other Spectres don't.

Cross checking Redemption Sentries at every lvl between pob and pob db this line (?) seems to double their base damage at every lvl!?

(off by ~80ish, maybe because of some damage reduction against standard mobs in pob? or damage spread).

lvl 78 poe db = 1519 pob = 2954
lvl 82 poe db = 1913 pob = 3755



I also checked Enhanced Vaal Fallen, which are arguable the hardest hitting spectre in the game. Poe DB shows 2047 base damage at lvl 82. Yet pob shows 8037 base average hit at 82.

I noticed they have the same line as RS "active_skill_damage_+%_final [1]" , but for EVF its an 4x multiplier!?

I guess there is more to spectre damage and scaling behaviour that we don't fully understand just yet.

Edit: Seems like alot of Attack based Spectres have this line if they don't have flat damage on their skills.
So far it seems that the base damage shown on poedb isn't what you realy get for those Spectres, but just the first step in their damage calculations.

I crosshecked most of the meta caster Spectres and all their numbers check out, as they have base flat damage on their spells.

If there is anything to take away from this, is we can't evaluate attackbased Spectres just from the db base damage numbers.

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muramiri wrote:

so i want some advice on how to solve the problems.
Are there any high HP spectres you can get?

Try removing your passive points from Retribution, Discipline and Training, and the Quick recovery wheel and spec into Indomitable Army. You should really be getting that wheel before the others listed for minion HP, phys reduction and ele reduction.

Edit: Also your gem links are odd - try to follow the gem skill guide more closely. At level 31 you should also be able to run Normal Lab (if you are comfortable with Izaro fights) to get more minion HP and dmg. I feel like you are dealing with a DPS issue and don't have enough to kill bosses before they dish out a lot of damage, which can be solved with things like skitterbots linked to infernal legion (and add skeletons to the link it for extra boss dps). Zombies w/ physical dmg, not minion life, etc.

Lastly, you should have crafted a +1 minion skills gem helmet by that level.

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Prevy wrote:

That list seems to be completely wrong. I know the numbers are from Poe DB, but I was curious because ingame Redemption Sentries have faster boss killing times than Slave Drivers and Esh, like by alot! And its not just Hatred.

Turns out, when you add Slave Drivers aswell as Redemption Sentries in PoB with a lvl 20 raise spectre gem with a blank tree-page, Redemption Sentries are far ahead in terms of dps and average hit damage.

At gem lvl 24, or Spectre lvl 82, Slave Drivers have an average hit of ~2900 which is about what the DB page states.

Redemption Sentries however have ~3755 average Hit at the same lvl on their Default Attack, yet poe db states 1913 base damage. Looking at different spectre pages and numbers I noticed this line: "active_skill_damage_+%_final [1]" is the only thing that Redemptions have, that the other Spectres don't.

Cross checking Redemption Sentries at every lvl between pob and pob db this line (?) seems to double their base damage at every lvl!?

(off by ~80ish, maybe because of some damage reduction against standard mobs in pob? or damage spread).

lvl 78 poe db = 1519 pob = 2954
lvl 82 poe db = 1913 pob = 3755



I also checked Enhanced Vaal Fallen, which are arguable the hardest hitting spectre in the game. Poe DB shows 2047 base damage at lvl 82. Yet pob shows 8037 base average hit at 82.

I noticed they have the same line as RS "active_skill_damage_+%_final [1]" , but for EVF its an 4x multiplier!?

I guess there is more to spectre damage and scaling behaviour that we don't fully understand just yet.

Edit: Seems like alot of Attack based Spectres have this line if they don't have flat damage on their skills.
So far it seems that the base damage shown on poedb isn't what you realy get for those Spectres, but just the first step in their damage calculations.

I crosshecked most of the meta caster Spectres and all their numbers check out, as they have base flat damage on their spells.

If there is anything to take away from this, is we can't evaluate attackbased Spectres just from the db base damage numbers.

THIS ^^

I agree 100% that Redemption Sentries are much stronger than they look in the poe database. Whatever the numbers are, the real-life results are that they have very high clear and single target DPS.

Today I was messing around with some other spectres and I went back to Slave Drivers just to have a base. They are still such an awesome spectre, they do everything with no gem swapping. But, going back to Redemption Sentries, I realized that my clear speed AND single-target bossing was higher than with Slave Drivers. PoB shows my slave drivers at 1.5mil dps each, and redemption sentries at 1.4mil dps each with boss setup and 675k dps each on mapping setup. So I would think that slave drivers would be better on bosses, but they aren't. I had 2 Minotaur maps and I bought 2 more just to test it (so 4 total), and without any map modifiers, the Redemption Sentries killed the minotaur about twice as fast as the Slave Drivers each time. Not to mention their clear speed is also much faster. It's true that Redemption Sentries need to gem swap for the big bosses (Guardians, Conquerors, Sirus, Elder), but it only takes 2 secs to do.

So I think that your conclusion is 100% accurate ^^

As a side question:

Does Elemental Damage with Attacks work with Enhanced Vaal Fallen? I don't trust PoB with EVH, it doesn't handle the Elemental Hit attack very well.

Like, could I link: Spectre, Elemental Damage with Attacks, Minion Damage, Melee Physical Damage, Multistrike, Concentrated Effect ?

For mapping replace Multistrike and Conc Effect with Melee Splash and Minion Speed support.

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JSquare wrote:

Try removing your passive points from Retribution, Discipline and Training, and the Quick recovery wheel and spec into Indomitable Army. You should really be getting that wheel before the others listed for minion HP, phys reduction and ele reduction.

Edit: Also your gem links are odd - try to follow the gem skill guide more closely. At level 31 you should also be able to run Normal Lab (if you are comfortable with Izaro fights) to get more minion HP and dmg. I feel like you are dealing with a DPS issue and don't have enough to kill bosses before they dish out a lot of damage, which can be solved with things like skitterbots linked to infernal legion (and add skeletons to the link it for extra boss dps). Zombies w/ physical dmg, not minion life, etc.

Lastly, you should have crafted a +1 minion skills gem helmet by that level.

1) Will try the pathing you suggest.
2) It was a 5th test with different pathing, gem setup, different gear luck. I did skellies 3 times with a lot better results but I want early spectres cuz I am stubborn.

Now I guess I shall mention I am a Spectre main since Abyss league, but most of the time I was lvling as SRS or as Herald of Agony. The only league I didn't do spectres was this one. So I decided to refresh my lvling skills with minions.

3) Zombies got oneshoted by Dominus's minions btw...

4) I had no 4L helmet, so decided to wait for one before craft.

5) Lab I do at lvl33-34, just before going after Kaom and Dareso.

You were right about DPS, I lacked DPS in all 5 runs, even if I had +1 helmet.

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Prevy wrote:

That list seems to be completely wrong. I know the numbers are from Poe DB, but I was curious because ingame Redemption Sentries have faster boss killing times than Slave Drivers and Esh, like by alot! And its not just Hatred.

Redemption Sentries however have ~3755 average Hit at the same lvl on their Default Attack, yet poe db states 1913 base damage. Looking at different spectre pages and numbers I noticed this line: "active_skill_damage_+%_final [1]" is the only thing that Redemptions have, that the other Spectres don't.

Whoops. I made a mistake with my lazy calculation. I'm so sorry (T＿T)

I forgot about (active_skill_damage_+%_final). So my number is very far off. Sorry about that. It is 200% at level 84, 1% at level 20. So 194% at level 82.

So if you use my number 1275 x 2.94 = 3748. It's close to POB?

But you are right about attack spectres. They are really hard to understand! I think there is a base damage value for all monsters. And then there is level scaling. Then base damage modifier. Then skill scaling and other things like conversion.


When I started this reply. I did a lot of checking! I use pypoe to check the stats properly this time ^^ And I think there's a major problem in POB numbers!

If you look at the calculation for RS default attack. The physical hit has '0.75 (base damage multiplied by base damage multiplier)'. But in the spectre stats the base damage multiplier is 1.5. So why is it 0.75 in POB?

EVF stats also has base damage multiplier 1.5. And when you choose default attack, it is the same 0.75. But if you look at Elemmental Hit it is 1.5. So the Ele hit matches the stats, but not default attack (why?)

If you check Slave Driver (base damage multiplier = 1) and check default attack, it is also 0.75!

So I think 'default attack' calculation in POB is just giving flat 75% multiplier to all spectres. (why?)

But the default attack for Redemption Sentry is actually MeleeEyrieArrow. It is a special attack like EVF's ElementalHitSkeletonKnightIncursion. It is not a basic default attack.

So, I looked in the POB spectre lua. MeleeEyrieArrow has 'baseMultiplier = 0.75'. And ElementalHitSkeletonKnightIncursion has 'baseMultiplier = 1.5'. (why?)

Why do both spectres have damage 1.5 in the stats, but POB has 0.75 for RS ability and 1.5 for EVF ability. Seem strange. So I looked at Contents.ggpk.

ElementalHitSkeletonKnightIncursion:

stat1value is 200, stat1 key is 634.

There is no 1.5 or 150 in the full stat line.

MeleeEyrieArrow:

stat2value is 200. stat2 key is 634.
stat1value is 75. stat1 key is 1110.

There is only one 0.75 in the full stat line.

634 is active_skill_damage_+%_final
1110 is skill_physical_damage_%_to_convert_to_cold

So it looks like 'baseMultiplier' was added manually and not taken from the stat line. But I'm not sure why 'baseMultiplier = 0.75' is added to MeleeEyrieArrow because the only 0.75 (or 75) is for cold conversion and ElementalHitSkeletonKnightIncursion has no 1.5 or 150, but it has 'baseMultiplier = 1.5'. Did the updater make a mistake because they saw 75 in the same 'stat1' position?

So... maybe the base damage for RS should be the same as EVF actually. It should also have 'baseMultiplier = 1.5'.

That would mean the actual RS hit (and also RK!) is the same as the Cold Hit for EVF! I think that's why RS kills boss quicker than other spectre but the POB DPS is not as good.

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Redemption Sentries have faster boss killing times than Slave Drivers and Esh, like by alot!

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wasabexx wrote:

PoB shows my slave drivers at 1.5mil dps each, and redemption sentries at 1.4mil dps each with boss setup

the Redemption Sentries killed the minotaur about twice as fast as the Slave Drivers each time.

* Maybe the correct info for POB lua:




Maybe I misunderstand, though. If anyone knows more about it, please share!

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wasabexx wrote:

As a side question:

Does Elemental Damage with Attacks work with Enhanced Vaal Fallen? I don't trust PoB with EVH, it doesn't handle the Elemental Hit attack very well.

Like, could I link: Spectre, Elemental Damage with Attacks, Minion Damage, Melee Physical Damage, Multistrike, Concentrated Effect ?

For mapping replace Multistrike and Conc Effect with Melee Splash and Minion Speed support.

Ele Damage should work because ElementalHitSkeletonKnightIncursion has 'attack' tag.

I tried splash and speed. It felt a lot better! Still not super fast though.

But after doing research to reply for Prevy, I think RK is actually more powerful than EVF because POB stats might be wrong.