[3.3] EHLD All-Round Cold Snapper [Dead]

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Head_Less wrote:

Just for the sake of discussion, don t really care that much.
Coward legacy is a 30% more damage multiplier to spell something that they really don t need in pvp.

The item is again a kick in the balls toward most melee players who can t even use their abyss jewels to get damage boost similar to this simple belt for caster ( my dreamed abusive and totally not fair rule: only melee can use abyss jewels).


Atziri shield is super expensive like 180 ex+ and the watcher eyes with unafected by Vulnerability is banned.

so the belt with Atziri shield get no downside at all but the cost is really high, higher than some items we banned because of cost and power (4 mods jewels/21 corrupted gems).

So my little provocation will consist to say that Atziri shield with curse immunity should be banned for it s entry cost until they flood the market and get down to 10ex or just ban the belt to be an eyesore for any melee players getting trolled by GGG.

Seems more the discussion is about banning Atziri's shield than Coward's

My opinion has always been that atziri reflection should banned, but everyone said no one is using them so there's no issue.

Also imo legacy = item that does not drop in every league and not obtainable through div cards/Zana, and that's what our rules should echo.

Way better than banning just Bestiary imo

since flasks are going to be limited, curses are going to decide who is going to win in this "new pvp" experience.

Atziri's reflection brings INSANE advantage, and is almost a must use in this format.

I can buy if i want to, but there are a lot of people who can't afford buying it.

I already sold my shield so i can talk in neutral position. Maybe i could buy later.
Current price is under 150ex and going cheaper. Ye but it's still expensive.

I think allow atziri's reflection is better than ban.
We should ban only something that destory 'scene'.


Anyway current pvp guides not work as guide. It's showcase and gallows.
People do not learn from guide, they judge it's fair or unfair.
Maybe I'll never write guide anymore. It seems not helpful for pvp.

I feel like if your sole reason for wanting to ban reflection is because it's unobtainable for the vast majority, you should also ban shaper and elder items (specifically rings) for the exact same reason. Of course reflection is vastly more difficult for players to acquire, but they're a similar case in my opinion.

I'm not saying it should or shouldn't be banned. I wouldn't have an issue with either case. I don't think that the belt by itself is a problem. Even with lori's it's not overpowered or anything, since the drawbacks of increased curse effect can be quite severe. Especially since pretty much everyone is elemental, and curse pots remove the vulnerability effect as well.

I also feel like the bigger problem is that as soon as someone posts a build guide for a character that's consistently winning their first reaction is to ban or nerf some aspect of it. Kinda feels like it would only keep others from making their own build guides in case their build gets gutted.

ok i thought they are still at 400ex price point. if it's 100ex, pvp is based on competition and 100ex isn't a huge deal. Since we are not 100000 people who plays pvp, i can share my atziri's reflection with my close pvp pals also.

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I also feel like the bigger problem is that as soon as someone posts a build guide for a character that's consistently winning their first reaction is to ban or nerf some aspect of it.

this is what ethical pvp suffers from most. I find this as a very toxic behaviour. People wanted to ban each others aoe overlapping builds like crazy and in the end Rain of Arrows won the tournament. In the first tournament a aoe overlapping skill won the tournament too. That shows how short sighted people are and completely driven by their selfish logic instead of seeing the bigger picture of what the pvp should be like. Not to mention it takes time to figure out counters for certain builds but people don't want to wait.

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Rupenus wrote:

this is what ethical pvp suffers from most. I find this as a very toxic behaviour. People wanted to ban each others aoe overlapping builds like crazy and in the end Rain of Arrows won the tournament. In the first tournament a aoe overlapping skill won the tournament too. That shows how short sighted people are and completely driven by their selfish logic instead of seeing the bigger picture of what the pvp should be like. Not to mention it takes time to figure out counters for certain builds but people don't want to wait.

How is that selfish logic and or toxic? There is a design issue of AoE overlap in PvP and PvE, GGG removed projectile shotgunning for this exact same reason but has never handled AoE overlap correctly. We've constantly banned sources of AoE overlap (KB, cluster trap, minefield, Rain of Arrows). Rain of Arrows was underestimated in terms of initial balance for PvP after the Patch notes and EthicalScionzz demonstrated its power well.

I fully understand that bans and such can happen too quickly and can create a situation where something hits the chopping block too early but at the same time there is risk in doing nothing and making PvP both predictable and stagnent with only a few real options. Sadly there is a limit to the community size and thus the wealth of information we get at one point. Regardless the tournament did a great job in demonstrating how much more dominant Rain of Arrows was in Ethicalscionzz countless 2v1s throughout the entire tournament consistently. It is great to have skilled and knowledgeable players like Ethicalscionzz willing to push the rules to a limit and see where they break. When a player is trying to do the best they can to gain every advantage possible in a PvP event it should be no suprrise that some bans can happen related because they are stress testing the sytem.

You always have an ability to contest rules, add discussion mention what you'd like to try and get the best feedback possible and thus the best ruleset possible for the ethical community events. Just always try to keep in mind that becuase a build can be beaten does not mean that build is balanced.

You've chosen to drop out of tournaments without notice, you've choosen not to add feedback but complain that a ruleset with the goal of creating a more even playing field is removing certain builds from it and that is "short sighted" and "selfish". You have choosen, like many not to participate and form something of meaning and simply scoff at those trying. As always everyone has the ability to vocalize their concerns with any events, rules, decisions or manner that I run things but even after multiple attempts to reach out to you from myself personally to understand your disdain or issues. You chose to say nothing, input nothing, and pout in the corner

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aliac123 wrote:

I think allow atziri's reflection is better than ban.
We should ban only something that destory 'scene'.


Anyway current pvp guides not work as guide. It's showcase and gallows.
People do not learn from guide, they judge it's fair or unfair.
Maybe I'll never write guide anymore. It seems not helpful for pvp.

Personally I agree with the first two lines. An item being expensive and making a build work can be really interesting, the issue will always come down to a case where everyones or a large majority of builds simply should have that item while it is fairly unobtainable. But at the same time I'm not trying to always impose my preferences and always want to see others thoughts.

I think you should keep writing guides, personally I was very happy to see this one posted as I was the most curious of all other builds that came up. There will definitly be the "fair, or unfair" discussion but that isn't necessarily unreasonable discussion to have and helps us get PvP in a state where players have options.

I do hope you post these more Aliac as it always helps me get a better understanding of the finer details of your combinations.

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You've chosen to drop out of tournaments without notice, you've choosen not to add feedback but complain that a ruleset with the goal of creating a more even playing field is removing certain builds from it and that is "short sighted" and "selfish"

i was givig my master thesis i wasn't even aware of date or time during those days.

Debating, exchanging ideas with people is a very exhausting process(especially with gamers, people who are giving too much meaning to pixels to patch their ego wounds up and therefore all their ideas are biased), you can't blame people for avoiding going through that also.

all the other points i made forces me to do name people, name what they have done. My life is extremely stressful, i don't wanna go through that either.

Ethical pvp is like a good experience for 1-2 weeks, you can do 1-2 builds and then get bored of. There is nothing to do, nothing to discover, nothing that intrigues you and urges you to become better. If you eventually become "better", you'll be nerfed, people will cry and that build will be nerfed. (unless you are melee) I was very pro-nerf the start too but i realize now how bad idea is to nerf everything.

In card games, why do developers put bad(or slightly less powerful) cards to the game? That's in order to create hierarchy of builds, so bad players will have the urge to become better and spend money or time for the game. That also gives purpose to people who are playing T2 or T3 builds to play better and win those "abusive" T1 builds and feel, really really good. There is a ladder to climb and that makes people play. For those who does not understand what i point here, i'm saying not every build should be viable, while putting this as a goal, you'd miss establishing a viable fun factor in pvp experience and lose even more viable builds than the start.

Why do pvp games tend to mostly buff other builds/chars instead of nerfing? When you nerf, you can't predict what's gonna be OP afterwards. The outcome of buffs are more predictible.

what we all did was to make 2-3 builds we made hundreds of builds non viable with this ruleset. I'm really tired to prove this and list some arguments and reinforce this statement. If you enjoy what you are playing, i wish more power and glory to you.

So i realized, these dota, overwatch etc game makers are actually very clever guys. This ethical pvp movement was a good lesson for me to comprehend the logic behind pvp game making devs.

also with new changes, poe pvp will be even more useless than ever. when i thought about it in detail, i am completely shocked how boring poe pvp experience gonna be.