[3.5] Oni-Goroshi Wild Strike/Molten Strike: (Slayer/Jugg, 7K+ HP, 5k+ Leech) ~ Uber Elder Down!

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KooperT wrote:

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Blaney217 wrote:

TLDR: "Increased sword damage / total damage" nodes on the tree are strong. Increased physical damage nodes are not.

Sorry to keep bugging you.

All of the "increased sword damage" nodes that I see in the tree that your build uses specify "increased PHYSICAL damage with swords". Why is that different from just "increased physical damage"?

I do understand what you're saying about it scaling off of flat phys damage before % modifiers and appreciate you clearing that up. What I don't see now is how the "% phys damage with swords" nodes are still good. lol

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All of the "increased sword damage" nodes that I see in the tree that your build uses specify "increased PHYSICAL damage with swords". Why is that different from just "increased physical damage"?

They aren't different; and you are right, they are not strong nodes - which is why we don't pick up all the sword nodes. If you use PoB, you can analyze which nodes are strong.

The key is recognizing that you may have to pass through some bad nodes (just like pathing through str/dex nodes etc.) to reach better, stronger nodes. Attack speed, for example, is a very strong stat for this build.

For example, let's use BLADE MASTER. Numbers below are from my current gear/character's PoB:

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KooperT wrote:

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All of the "increased sword damage" nodes that I see in the tree that your build uses specify "increased PHYSICAL damage with swords". Why is that different from just "increased physical damage"?

They aren't different; and you are right, they are not strong nodes - which is why we don't pick up all the sword nodes. If you use PoB, you can analyze which nodes are strong.

The key is recognizing that you may have to pass through some bad nodes (just like pathing through str/dex nodes etc.) to reach better, stronger nodes. Attack speed, for example, is a very strong stat for this build.

For example, let's use BLADE MASTER. Numbers below are from my current gear/character's PoB:

Spoiler

The very first point "Sword Damage" is a very weak node; it provides 1.4% total DPS for the point spent.

The second and third nodes "Sword Damage and Attack Speed" provide 2.8% total DPS for each point spent. The final node, Blade Master, provides 10.4% total DPS.

So for 4 points spent, I gain 18.2% total DPS. That's 4.6% total DPS per point spent.


If you can find any other 4 points on the tree that will provide more DPS per-point, I would be glad to learn where! I haven't seen any.

(The above explanation is also why we take Blade Master but not Razor's Edge. Razor provides only 2.2% total DPS per point spent, which is less than half of Blade Master.)

The main reason for this difference is that the +200 Flat Accuracy and 10% Attack Speed are excellent nodes for this build, which Blade Master provides.

thanks. have a good one

Thoughts on this build for a 100 push? I.E Tanky enough to not die in the late 90's when it hurts and fast clear speed for when the grind hurts lol :)?

Started this build recently and wanted to share some of my impressions.

First advice, if you are dying(with multiple exalts worth of gear) a lot with wild strike it might be coz don't move when attacking is not selected as it seem to sometime start walking into pack trying to attack some distant monster. This way you attack closest one always.

As I have been researching about conversions recently I must disagree to this comment (according to wiki forum and reddit)

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KooperT wrote:

100 Physical Damage --> 40 Physical + 60 Fire
138% as extra fire --> 138 Fire Damage

TOTAL: 40 Physical + 198 Fire

So now, if you apply 10% increased physical damage... or 10% increased elemental damage... you get +4 physical or +20 fire damage. Big difference.

this is not true, 10% inc phys gives +4 phys AND +20 fire as converted fire is affected by modifiers for damage that is WAS(phys) and now is (just add them all up). This does not work for added fire. Since this build scales phys and uses conversions it is best so get added phys(to attacks sword attacks) and crit multi(global or for elemental skills) on jewels, if you are shopping for non abyss jewels increased phys(regular of with swords) or fire damage is good as we dont have too much nodes on tree that give %increased. I think that melee phys modifiers don't work with magma balls but I'm not sure about that. With this in mind I think some other calculations with conversions are not entirely correct but who cares, it clears and wiki is all we have.

Gem quality and anger watcher eye look like a big damage upgrade. Dying sun is huge, when i turn it on bosses just melt, I can only imagine what it is like with helmet
For the price of gear and what it offers both offence and defence I really like the build, hopefully it will take me to the end game.

Q: what was your gem setup with kaom roots for shaper /uber elder
Q: why combustion on wild strike (so that trash that survives just burn to death, even burning dmg is garbage ?)
Q: did you craft you jewels and if so how many alts did you use, I spend like 500 yesterday hit t1 life twice, never in combination with something good (yes I craft on ilvl 84 jewels). If not what was their price.

Cheers

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First advice, if you are dying(with multiple exalts worth of gear) a lot with wild strike it might be coz don't move when attacking is not selected as it seem to sometime start walking into pack trying to attack some distant monster. This way you attack closest one always.

This is a very important piece of advice; attack in place is definitely very important for skills like this. It's similar to Reave; you want to be able to just stand in place and throw attacks at whatever is nearby/around you.

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As I have been researching about conversions recently I must disagree to this comment (according to wiki forum and reddit)

this is not true, 10% inc phys gives +4 phys AND +20 fire as converted fire is affected by modifiers for damage that is WAS(phys) and now is (just add them all up). This does not work for added fire. Since this build scales phys and uses conversions it is best so get added phys(to attacks sword attacks) and crit multi(global or for elemental skills) on jewels, if you are shopping for non abyss jewels increased phys(regular of with swords) or fire damage is good as we dont have too much nodes on tree that give %increased. I think that melee phys modifiers don't work with magma balls but I'm not sure about that. With this in mind I think some other calculations with conversions are not entirely correct but who cares, it clears and wiki is all we have.

Not entirely sure on the exact math; as I said, the overall math-complexity is a bit tricky, so it's best to test things out with Path of Building. You can easily create a gem with say 10% physical damage and see how much flat phys/fire it is giving you, and what are good upgrades. I know for a fact from testing that %increased physical damage is one of the weakest stats to aim for on gear/tree/abyss jewels etc.

From testing, the best modifiers for damage are as follows:
1) Flat Physical
2) Crit Multiplier
3) Attack Speed (Especially the "Attack Speed after dealing a Critical Strike" from Abyss jewel)
4) Flat Fire
5) % Increased Elemental Damage with Attacks
6) % Increased physical/melee/with sword etc.
7) Crit Chance

You are correct that melee physical modifiers do not have any impact on magma balls.

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Q: what was your gem setup with kaom roots for shaper /uber elder
Q: why combustion on wild strike (so that trash that survives just burn to death, even burning dmg is garbage ?)
Q: did you craft you jewels and if so how many alts did you use, I spend like 500 yesterday hit t1 life twice, never in combination with something good (yes I craft on ilvl 84 jewels). If not what was their price.

You don't need Kaom's roots at all for Shaper... He's a joke of a fight.

For U-Elder, with Kaom's root setup and 2-socket Tombfist, I ran:
Glove: Anger + Herald of Ash
Helm: Whirling + Faster Attacks + Fortify + Ancestral Protector
Unset Ring: Blood Rage

I dropped the CWDT setup because like 80% of the lethal/oneshot damage in this fight is elemental and avoidable, immortal call won't do much for you, the golem is nice but you are socket starved. Ancestral Protector offers more DPS as a 1-gem wonder. If you really wanted to keep CWDT + IC, run a 1-socket Tombfist, and put CWDT + IC in glove, and an aura in place of the protector.

(Note that, going forward, if I play this build again next league... It's probably worth dropping Herald of Ash for Purity of Ice just for this fight.)

Combustion is used simply because it's a strong support gem; the burning damage of this build is somewhat negligable. It provides 29% more damage and -19% fire resist debuff; there's not many other great support gems. Fire Penetration would be a decent substitute. They are pretty close in damage as per PoB-simulation.

Crafting jewels like the ones I have are probably not worth/not easy to do. I bought all mine - cost me about 1ex - 1.5ex each around 3rd week into league (when exalts were like 150c+).

Hi there. Sorry if it's a bit off-topic but have you thought or looked on using Voidforge for WS? If so, what are your thoughts. Thanks!

Thoughts on faster attacks instead of conc effect. I noticed much higher tooltip dps with that setup for molten strike. Jugg/slayer varient

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Hi there. Sorry if it's a bit off-topic but have you thought or looked on using Voidforge for WS? If so, what are your thoughts. Thanks!

Haven't thought about this, but you have me interested; Maybe i'll theory-craft a similar build with Voidforge (endgame obviously) for next league.
The immediate downside would be you can't convert/scale to 100% fire damage, and stacking a single element penetration would not be possible... but might make up for it in higher overall DPS (maybe?) and no need for Xoph's heart.

Also, since it wouldn't be fire-based, Molten Strike may not be worth using as the boss-killer.

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amolka wrote:

Thoughts on faster attacks instead of conc effect. I noticed much higher tooltip dps with that setup for molten strike. Jugg/slayer varient

Extremely Terrible.

Never use tooltip dps, it's not a proper representation of anything.
This is especially the case for Molten Strike - the ingame tooltip dps only represents the melee hit portion of Molten Strike, not the balls, which are like 80%+ of the total dps.

With that said, Conc Effect is the #1 single target support for Molten Strike. No build should be without it. Not only does it up the DPS, but the important factor is it REDUCES the AoE spread of the balls. That means less balls will fly off and miss your target.

(Faster Attacks is a very weak support gem; if you absolutely must replace Conc Effect I would swap in Fire Penetration over Faster Attacks, or even Physical Projectile Dmg)

Here's some maths I pulled off a reddit post from a while back:


For more accurate DPS simulations, besides using Path of Building obviously, I highly recommend this Molten Strike DPS Calculator:
https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1903956

So, I've been playing a variant of your build on HC.

I'm using BoTB linked with VAAL DS to help single target and I went to Marauder starting.

I used your Path of Building and modified it.

By going Marauder starting instead of Duelist you actually gain more DPS and more HP (almost 1k more with your build) and more armor.

https://pastebin.com/uHgW7XQr

Check it out