the reason for running curses, particularly Tc and enfeeble, and to lower the threat of rare monsters from abysses, bestiary things, and other general nasties such as beyond bosses and breachlords. the arguements you make for not running curses can be applied to aspect of the spider, which is essentially a curse, if you arnt running curses for the stated reasons, then you dont need to be running spider. the curses also allow you to outrun your carry, debuff the map, and remain safe yourself, depending on the map, they also keep you safe if you're doing some kind of split tactic (vault levers). the idea behind not taking things that many people dont make use of is you want to be useful and providing as much scaling as possible in as many situations as possible, which is why i dont agree with the use of determination and PoE (though yes i agree if your main carry is a pariah mf'r then you need this, but most players following your guide likely wont be). and blasphemy range is quite large, it should be about 3/4 of the screen at least.
Envy itself isn't terrible, it's just there are far more useful options for a weapon and your aura reserve, a little bit more damage is less valuable than freeing up a flask slot for example, this is also the reason many builds just dont run hatred, it's just not as valuable as other options and only applies to a certain number of builds.
you might not fall behind with the carries that you play with but the fact is if you play with a 300% move speed TS character that is using mirage archer, you will fall behind with only 150%, 150 is fine for most cases but as you say there is already a case you have encountered yourself that makes you fall behind, this is dangerous especially if your carry needs you for res and runs into a monster they missed on the first pass, or backtracks for a box.
fitting all these additional auras is fine, but losing out on gem slots for what is essentially 3% attack speed(see determination) it's not that practical, with just dropping one aura you free up the need to drop enlightens into the build due to reservation, and can run a lot more quality of life things like a movement skill or even a portal gem (which you can link to phase run + enhance since they both benefit from quality).
if you're talking about making the most min/maxed aurabot like in your description, then 150% movement speed is far from min/max and if you run with min/maxed 300% carries it just isnt going to be up to speed. the build is a very solid one and as i said i do like the build in general but its defiantly more on the casual side, which is not an insult of any kind, even if it sounds like one.
As I said I totally get your point, but on the other side I cannot agree on everything.
I don't think you can really compare Spider with a curse, that's a not mitigable 30% slow and 5% more damage (up to 15%), against anything, any monster, any map mods, any build; moreover it doesn't require a single socket in our build (and support builds are commonly pretty link-starved).
I also don't think that having perma-onslaught (or other minor QoL bonuses) is that much better than offering Envy to your carries, actually I think it's the opposite in almost any possible istance. While clearing you have 100% uptime on any flask (if you carry has any clue of what he's doing), so I always have onslough anyway; having another utility flask doesn't seems that useful to me.
You also prefer using Sapphire/Ruby/Topaz flasks, I can respect it, but that's just pointless in my opinion; I've never seen any monster (except Uber Elder maybe, but that's a whole different topic) dealing enough elemental damage to kill a character with 84% max res and 8.5k EHP, you can facetank Ice Nova boxes in t16 maps and barely notice it. I know you can always find the maps with crazy mods (-max res and extra damage as all three elements) but that's a a scary place to be in with or without flasks. That's without even considering the fact that with Vaal Grace and the phasing flask I am dodge andspell dodge capped.
I definitely agree on other things though, like Determination and other auras not beeing much useful in most parties. I also see your aurabot is level 100, so I understand that if you really wanna push for that goal you have to squeeze in as much defensive layers as possible (for you and your party), therefore curses can be a really solid improvement.
Moreover the core idea of this build was to create a "pure" aurabot, providing all possible auras to support every possible party you may find yourself in.
Anyway I really appreciated this discussion, this also motivated me add another section into the guide in which I talk more about curses and a possible setup using two of those. I also mentioned in the items discussion those alternative weapons you suggested, even though I personally do not like them, they might be useful for someone reading it.
the reason for running curses, particularly Tc and enfeeble, and to lower the threat of rare monsters from abysses, bestiary things, and other general nasties such as beyond bosses and breachlords. the arguements you make for not running curses can be applied to aspect of the spider, which is essentially a curse, if you arnt running curses for the stated reasons, then you dont need to be running spider. the curses also allow you to outrun your carry, debuff the map, and remain safe yourself, depending on the map, they also keep you safe if you're doing some kind of split tactic (vault levers). the idea behind not taking things that many people dont make use of is you want to be useful and providing as much scaling as possible in as many situations as possible, which is why i dont agree with the use of determination and PoE (though yes i agree if your main carry is a pariah mf'r then you need this, but most players following your guide likely wont be). and blasphemy range is quite large, it should be about 3/4 of the screen at least.
Envy itself isn't terrible, it's just there are far more useful options for a weapon and your aura reserve, a little bit more damage is less valuable than freeing up a flask slot for example, this is also the reason many builds just dont run hatred, it's just not as valuable as other options and only applies to a certain number of builds.
you might not fall behind with the carries that you play with but the fact is if you play with a 300% move speed TS character that is using mirage archer, you will fall behind with only 150%, 150 is fine for most cases but as you say there is already a case you have encountered yourself that makes you fall behind, this is dangerous especially if your carry needs you for res and runs into a monster they missed on the first pass, or backtracks for a box.
fitting all these additional auras is fine, but losing out on gem slots for what is essentially 3% attack speed(see determination) it's not that practical, with just dropping one aura you free up the need to drop enlightens into the build due to reservation, and can run a lot more quality of life things like a movement skill or even a portal gem (which you can link to phase run + enhance since they both benefit from quality).
if you're talking about making the most min/maxed aurabot like in your description, then 150% movement speed is far from min/max and if you run with min/maxed 300% carries it just isnt going to be up to speed. the build is a very solid one and as i said i do like the build in general but its defiantly more on the casual side, which is not an insult of any kind, even if it sounds like one.
As I said I totally get your point, but on the other side I cannot agree on everything.
I don't think you can really compare Spider with a curse, that's a not mitigable 30% slow and 5% more damage (up to 15%), against anything, any monster, any map mods, any build; moreover it doesn't require a single socket in our build (and support builds are commonly pretty link-starved).
I also don't think that having perma-onslaught (or other minor QoL bonuses) is that much better than offering Envy to your carries, actually I think it's the opposite in almost any possible istance. While clearing you have 100% uptime on any flask (if you carry has any clue of what he's doing), so I always have onslough anyway; having another utility flask doesn't seems that useful to me.
You also prefer using Sapphire/Ruby/Topaz flasks, I can respect it, but that's just pointless in my opinion; I've never seen any monster (except Uber Elder maybe, but that's a whole different topic) dealing enough elemental damage to kill a character with 84% max res and 8.5k EHP, you can facetank Ice Nova boxes in t16 maps and barely notice it. I know you can always find the maps with crazy mods (-max res and extra damage as all three elements) but that's a a scary place to be in with or without flasks. That's without even considering the fact that with Vaal Grace and the phasing flask I am dodge andspell dodge capped.
I definitely agree on other things though, like Determination and other auras not beeing much useful in most parties. I also see your aurabot is level 100, so I understand that if you really wanna push for that goal you have to squeeze in as much defensive layers as possible (for you and your party), therefore curses can be a really solid improvement.
Moreover the core idea of this build was to create a "pure" aurabot, providing all possible auras to support every possible party you may find yourself in.
Anyway I really appreciated this discussion, this also motivated me add another section into the guide in which I talk more about curses and a possible setup using two of those. I also mentioned in the items discussion those alternative weapons you suggested, even though I personally do not like them, they might be useful for someone reading it.
true, running curses is definitely not a pure aurabot as it were, more of a hybrid one thats built to survive almost anything while providing support and debuffing everything as much as possible. the reason i said to compare to a curse is that it has the same functionality and limitations in terms of when and how it applies, which was what you mentioned having an issue with and why you preferred auras. though in general, spider is ridiculously strong, especially for no socket. the idea behind what i did for mine was to maximise survability and min/max that with supporting in as many situations as possible while going as fast as possible (accidentally outrunning the carry and ending up inside a pack of monsters would be an eg where curses and spider and important)
res flasks are useful as a precaution, it allows you to run -max without being too scared, and just allows you to run more things a lot easier, and for me, to not worry about resistances and take things i dont find to be efficient for my build/style of play. as for adding the ideas into your own guild, thats always a good thing, showing people what they have available, i have my own guides out about the type of aura i play as well, and i try to do the same, you have a very well written guide
Last edited by Alloxya on Apr 22, 2018, 12:48:51 PM
Been using your build for a guide for this season and I must say I love it so far. been trying to squeeze in the Aspect of the Spider aura for more damage and defensive - I just can't figure it out with the calculator.
Currently only running 4 gems with empower, which should allow me to run with a 10% enchant on the helm instead of a 15% which are 30 odd exalted atm. But I just can't get it to add up. Been trying for a few days now, but to no avail.
If you have the time to have a look at my current setup and spot the mistake, I would be gratefull.
Character link: https://www.pathofexile.com/account/view-profile/Ronoidd/characters
Been using your build for a guide for this season and I must say I love it so far. been trying to squeeze in the Aspect of the Spider aura for more damage and defensive - I just can't figure it out with the calculator.
Currently only running 4 gems with empower, which should allow me to run with a 10% enchant on the helm instead of a 15% which are 30 odd exalted atm. But I just can't get it to add up. Been trying for a few days now, but to no avail.
If you have the time to have a look at my current setup and spot the mistake, I would be gratefull.
Character link: https://www.pathofexile.com/account/view-profile/Ronoidd/characters
Regards,
Ronoidd
That's a though situation, as far as I'm concerned you cannot run all 14 auras and the Aspect with your setup.
Playing around a bit with PoB, the closest I can get is by placing Grace in the Victario's and Purity of Elements in the weapon; even with this setup you are literally reserving 100% of your life, and I think the game won't allow you to do so.
I think you really have to sacrifice either the Aspect or an aura (probably Determination) until you can afford the upgraded helm enchant (it's crazy how expensive they got since the last time I checked them).
Keep in mind that
"
Enlighten doesn't affect skills that are not granted by a specific gem, which means that we cannot reduce the reservation cost of Envy with it. This is not correctly handled by PoB (or other "aura-calculator") at this moment, be careful with it.
Been using your build for a guide for this season and I must say I love it so far. been trying to squeeze in the Aspect of the Spider aura for more damage and defensive - I just can't figure it out with the calculator.
Currently only running 4 gems with empower, which should allow me to run with a 10% enchant on the helm instead of a 15% which are 30 odd exalted atm. But I just can't get it to add up. Been trying for a few days now, but to no avail.
If you have the time to have a look at my current setup and spot the mistake, I would be gratefull.
Character link: https://www.pathofexile.com/account/view-profile/Ronoidd/characters
Regards,
Ronoidd
the easiest solution is to drop determination. even though you use iron reflexes the gain is still minimal compared to spider, its a case of prioritising whats most important to you at this point. alternatively, just run skyforths and forget about the regen, no regen is a pain but thats the only way to run everything
that said, i have a setup that allows 11 auras 3 curse auras and spider , maybe you can adjust that.
edit: never mind, i thought i'd try it out but determination and envy just cost too much, especially since envy cant be affected by enlighten as previously mentioned.
Last edited by Alloxya on Apr 26, 2018, 4:45:58 AM
Been using your build for a guide for this season and I must say I love it so far. been trying to squeeze in the Aspect of the Spider aura for more damage and defensive - I just can't figure it out with the calculator.
Currently only running 4 gems with empower, which should allow me to run with a 10% enchant on the helm instead of a 15% which are 30 odd exalted atm. But I just can't get it to add up. Been trying for a few days now, but to no avail.
If you have the time to have a look at my current setup and spot the mistake, I would be gratefull.
Character link: https://www.pathofexile.com/account/view-profile/Ronoidd/characters
Regards,
Ronoidd
the easiest solution is to drop determination. even though you use iron reflexes the gain is still minimal compared to spider, its a case of prioritising whats most important to you at this point. alternatively, just run skyforths and forget about the regen, no regen is a pain but thats the only way to run everything
that said, i have a setup that allows 11 auras 3 curse auras and spider , maybe you can adjust that.
edit: never mind, i thought i'd try it out but determination and envy just cost too much, especially since envy cant be affected by enlighten as previously mentioned.
Oh hell no. You do not drop Determination. Due to how double dipping works with IR, Determination is calculated to add ~45% MORE ARMOUR (inc/more multipliers unknown.)
No regen is a pain, but doable. To counter Skyforths, get a ES regen Watcher's Eye & Shavronne's Revelation (place into slot ring2.) Pure ES regen is not blocked. Life (and Zealoth's Oath ES) regen is.
Drop Empower 4 & replace United in Dream with Ephmereal Edge. Or better yet, drop the Spider setup & use Victario's Influence. (Though that defeats the purpose of this build.)
It'd be nice to not hard freeze. Just saying. YES I AM INSANE, ZANA! :>
Last edited by bvanharjr on Apr 26, 2018, 8:44:09 PM
Been using your build for a guide for this season and I must say I love it so far. been trying to squeeze in the Aspect of the Spider aura for more damage and defensive - I just can't figure it out with the calculator.
Currently only running 4 gems with empower, which should allow me to run with a 10% enchant on the helm instead of a 15% which are 30 odd exalted atm. But I just can't get it to add up. Been trying for a few days now, but to no avail.
If you have the time to have a look at my current setup and spot the mistake, I would be gratefull.
Character link: https://www.pathofexile.com/account/view-profile/Ronoidd/characters
Regards,
Ronoidd
the easiest solution is to drop determination. even though you use iron reflexes the gain is still minimal compared to spider, its a case of prioritising whats most important to you at this point. alternatively, just run skyforths and forget about the regen, no regen is a pain but thats the only way to run everything
that said, i have a setup that allows 11 auras 3 curse auras and spider , maybe you can adjust that.
edit: never mind, i thought i'd try it out but determination and envy just cost too much, especially since envy cant be affected by enlighten as previously mentioned.
Oh hell no. You do not drop Determination. Due to how double dipping works with IR, Determination is calculated to add ~45% MORE ARMOUR (inc/more multipliers unknown.)
No regen is a pain, but doable. To counter Skyforths, get a ES regen Watcher's Eye & Shavronne's Revelation (place into slot ring2.) Pure ES regen is not blocked. Life (and Zealoth's Oath ES) regen is.
Drop Empower 4 & replace United in Dream with Ephmereal Edge. Or better yet, drop the Spider setup & use Victario's Influence. (Though that defeats the purpose of this build.)
a typical build with IR and no armor flasks will have 62% phys reduction with 12k armour , determination brings you to 79% with 23k armour (using my own character) , its not significant enough due to how diminishing returns work, similar to how stacking massive amounts of evasion isnt worth it for chance to evade. you will have 80% with basalt without determ, 90% with determ, the returns just arnt worth the cost of the aura. strong aura yes, but not worth it compared to other options. spider for eg is way more useful than 10% phys reduction especially since this build uses fortify for an additional reduction to hits, which count towards most phys sources.
Last edited by Alloxya on Apr 27, 2018, 10:29:55 AM
Can anyone look at my build and tell me why I can't run all the auras? I've looked at it a lot and the only thing I can see is that I'm missing a helm enchant. Is that really all I'm missing or should I be able to get there with my current setup? Any pointers or suggestions would be greatly appreciated because I'm losing my mind.
Ok, i figured it out. Apparently PoB was accounting for 1 extra purity of fire, which you have on swap. So, yes, you only need helm enchant to run all auras.
I wanted to pm you ingame, but you went offline already)
Can anyone look at my build and tell me why I can't run all the auras? I've looked at it a lot and the only thing I can see is that I'm missing a helm enchant. Is that really all I'm missing or should I be able to get there with my current setup? Any pointers or suggestions would be greatly appreciated because I'm losing my mind.
Yup, to run all the auras and the Spider you need the helm enchant.
Keep also in mind that the Enlighten in the weapon does not affect Envy (even though PoB reduced its mana reservation cost).
Either you get the helm enchant, or you need to sacrifice something; I would probably just drop Determination, since it's the least useful aura for most of the builds you are gonna play with.
