ALL HAIL PRESIDENT TRUMP

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deathflower wrote:

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Doesn't matter how many he committed, he doesn't seem to have any on RECORD. He had no criminal record when he bought his AR-15 rifle. Does this mean he had never been convicted for any crimes? That tell you something...

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1453R wrote:

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deathflower wrote:

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Doesn't matter how many he committed, he doesn't seem to have any on RECORD. He had no criminal record when he bought his AR-15 rifle. Does this mean he had never been convicted for any crimes? That tell you something...

If every sign pointed to this child being a risk - and they clearly did - then he should not have been able to obtain a rifle. All the warning signs were there. Scrotie provided an excellent breakdown of legal troubles that should have, at the least, mandated consistent monitoring.

I say this as someone who was once ostracized as a school shooting risk myself - back when I was young my school administration did everything it could to try and goad me into saying or doing something that they could use to get me into juvenile hall because one man, once, said that I fit enough of the profile established by earlier shootings to be a Risk. I know myself - I would have done myself harm before I would have done the student body harm, and my family was wise enough to see where this was going and get me out before crunch time.

That said? There's a middle ground between hounding a student so badly she has to retreat to home school in order to avoid breaking down and just ignoring something like this. No, you don't arrest someone until they do something wrong - but if they're an extraordinarily likely threat of Making Mischief, you keep an eye on them. if I'm understanding Scrotie's information correctly, this boy wasn't under any sort of monitoring or treatment plan at all. What the fuck.

You can screech at people to stop 'blaming' mental illness all you like, and to hold criminals accountable for their actions. First of all, nobody is disagreeing. This boy will be paying for his flipout for the rest of his life, and frankly I'm of the opinion he should never see the outside of a jail cell again. That doesn't mean a damn thing. He was, and is, mentally ill. Every sign pointed to violent tendencies. The people around him had ample time to try and get him somewhere, or into a situation, where those tendencies where not going to result in seventeen dead people.

Clearly, something failed somewhere.

*****

Now. For some rude words for the other half of the debate, because I was recently challenged to put what I actually want into words, rather than just tell other people they're stupid. If you're not interested in the gun control side of the debate, stop reading here. If you are?:

Spoiler

The Kel-Tech SU-16

This is my rifle. There are many like it, yadda yadda. You will note that it's not an AR-15, or anything that really looks much like an AR-15. It's a gas piston gun, not a direct impingement. Uses a different action, comes with that sporter-style stock people think makes the gun safer (spoilers: you're stupid), mine isn't threaded for muzzle devices because it's old. Ships with ten-round CommieFornia Compliant Magazines, though not in Commiefornia-legal configuration unless you specifically order a Charlie variant. It is an inexpensive rifle designed as an Everyman gun, something the average guy can afford to go backpacking with, or to use as a hunting or defensive gun.

The AR-15 does not do a single damn thing my SU-16 does not do.

Both guns take the same magazines. Both shoot the same rounds. Both are semi-automatic. My SU gets hot after about seventy-, eighty rounds, gets uncomfortable to shoot, but it still spits bullets just fine. Exact same round the AR-15 shoots, except I've got a couple of extra barrel inches over an average AR-15 so I get a bit more muzzle energy. SU-16 shoots slightly better than a price-competitive AR-15. And nobody knows this thing []i]exists[/i], let alone is shrieking that it's an Evil Death Ray that needs to be Banned Forever.

Let's try something else.

Beretta CX4 Storm

This is also my rifle. Doesn't look like an AR-15. Doesn't work like an AR-15. Blowback-operated PCC, firing 9mm pistol ammunition except with similar muzzle energies/velocities to .357 Magnum when fired out of a 16" rifle barrel instead of a 4" pistol barrel. Takes pistol magazines. If - and let me be perfectly clear here, I am making this argument solely as a Devil's Advocate exercise and do not condone any unlawful use of firearms so don't give me that shit - I were to plan a mass shooting? I'd use this, not my SU. 9mm's easier to find, and available in Personal Defense loads designed to stop an angry, drug-addled attacker with only one well-placed hit. Gun's shorter and handier, reloads are easier for untrained users, recoil's negligible even for kids or wusses because it's a big honkin' rifle firing pistol bullets.

I have seen someone suggest that the CX4 Storm needs to be banned as a Dangerous Murderous Implement exactly once. Again - most people don't even know it exists.

Stop. Blaming. The Guns. Not because we don't need tighter gun control, but because you (generic 'you' - again, don't give me that shit) are too stupid to know how to gun control. Banning the AR-15 in a fit of emotional fury accomplishes nothing - give me five minutes and I could come up with a list of at least twenty non-AR15 weapons that do the exact same job, take the same or similar magazines, and would be completely untouched by an AR-15 ban.

What you need to do is flush the entire BATFE. Get rid of it complete, replace it with people who actually know what they're doing. Redefine everything. No more dumbfuck stupidass lists of 'Rifle Features' and 'Pistol Features' and 'Shotgun Features' that the industry has turned into a literal joke by now. Define a firearm, and make the definition broad enough in scope that it hits everything. Personally, I favor 'a device which utilizes a propulsive medium wholly independent of the user's own strength to discharge an uncaptured projectile with energy at the muzzle end in excess of [whatever figure in joules is required to break human skin].' That gets all powder-driven firearms, heavier airguns, any electric-fired nonsense we get in the future, all of it.

Put that stuff behind a license. The license requires a written knowledge test and at least one in-person certification with a trainer, same as vastly-more-deadly automobiles. And if you don't think the multi-ton armored battering ram in your driveway is more dangerous than a firearm you're insane. I respect firearms and treat them with all the care they're due. As a non-driver who gets around by bicycle during the warmer months, I am absolutely terrified of automobiles because you fuckers don't pay a single lick of attention if there's not a DMV rep in the car. People who're negligent with guns get thrown off their ranges, get arrested, get their guns confiscated, or any of a number of other almost-violent outcomes. People who're negligent behind the wheel are literally everywhere and nobody cares. FUCK cars. Fuck cars forever.

...anyways.

That license? The test-and-certification one? That gets you 'classic' firearms. Lever guns, pump guns, bolt guns - anything that requires a physical action on the part of the shooter to chamber another round. Semi-automatics - all semi-automatics - are behind a more stringent license that requires one to A.) maintain the first certification in good standing for two years, B.) pass a more stringent physical test, and C.) if I had my way, get a note from a psychologist/psychiatrist stating that the individual has passed a basic medical mental health examination and shows no obvious signs of depravity.

This means AR-15s, yes. Also SU-16s and CX4 Storms. Also Glocks. Also double-action revolvers (though an exemption could potentially be made for DA revolvers, as those are limited in other ways).
Also cheap-as-nails Ruger 10/22s that have been sold by the millions for forty years because it's a rinky-dink .22. Doesn't matter. If you aspire to semi-autos, you get that Level 2 certification and your "I'm not a raging nutjob" ticket. Then you can get your semi-autos. Whichever ones you want. Whatever barrel length you want. Want to put a sound suppressor on it so you're a better range neighbor? Go for it. Want a hundred-round drum mag for your 8" suppressed Bad Idea Incarnate AR? Have at it.

That's the important part. Get that Level 2 license and you can get whatever you want in semi-auto. No restrictions on what manufacturers are allowed to make to try and get you to make bad spending decisions on. No barrel length restrictions. No magazine restrictions. No 'list of no-no features', outside of a full-auto sear. Get that license? You want it, you got it.

People keep saying 'NOBODY NEEDS A THIRTY-ROUND SEMI-AUTOMATIC GUN TO DO LEGAL GUN STUFF WITH!' And you know what? That's true. It's also completely irrelevant. The government's job is not to tell me what I do or do not need. Nobody needs a V12 monstercar that can hit two hundred miles an hour from a dead stop in two and a half seconds. Nobody needs copious amounts of soda that does basically nothing for them save go straight to their gut. Nobody needs nicotine. Nobody needs alcohol. the Constitution does not tell us that the government is supposed to watchdog our personal lives and tell us what we are and are not allowed to do with the personal freedom it holds to be our highest and most fundamental human right.

Do I need thirty-round magazines for my SU-16? No. But if I've proven myself a law-abiding and mentally competent citizen? You have no fucking right to tell me what I need or don't need. Same reason I believe in legalizing and regulating drugs - get it out of the cartel's hands, and furthermore if someone wants to make the terrible life decision that is heroin use (and they're otherwise an adult of sound* mind), that's their choice. Will they regret it? Will they hate themselves for what they did? Will they rant and rail and demand to know why nobody stopped them?

Yes. Doesn't matter. Welcome to being free. We'll help you if you need it, and we'll ask that you help us to help others who need it, but elsewise your life is yours to do with as you please. For good or ill.

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1453R wrote:

You're doing the same thing everyone else is - trying to shut down any talk of the handling of mental illness as a severe issue in this country and foisting the blame for shooting incidents on Evil Turbo Nazi Gun People (if you're a leftist) or Vicious Violent Criminals Who Don't Get A Free Pass (if you're a rightist).

Screw that.

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Manocean wrote:

As someone from Florida... we aren't giving up the guns. Too many of you don't understand what it's like here.

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

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1453R wrote:

You're doing the same thing everyone else is - trying to shut down any talk of the handling of mental illness as a severe issue in this country and foisting the blame for shooting incidents on Evil Turbo Nazi Gun People (if you're a leftist) or Vicious Violent Criminals Who Don't Get A Free Pass (if you're a rightist).

Screw that.

Well, I certainly think this particular case is one where no new regulations need be created, although it would have been nice if some of the previous (lefty-inspired) regulations had been enforced. I think the first thing to do, if you want to promote new laws before actually promoting them, is check whether law enforcement was enforcing previously existing law or not. This case is a textbook example of "not."

The only one statistic the jumped out at me was this: 3 days after expulsion from the school he would shoot up one year later, Nikolas Cruz purchased his AR15. 3 days. I think I might actually be behind some sort of legally mandated no-buy period following expulsion might be an okay idea, although I'd be loathe to permanently strip gun rights from expelled students.

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1453R wrote:

There's folks screaming in feeds everywhere that the Evil Turbo Nazi Gun People are trying to scapegoat mental health victims, when everybody clearly knows the real issue is that America is not a Gun Free Zone.