ALL HAIL PRESIDENT TRUMP

The standards have shifted. In 2008, some journalists may not have been able to imagine anyone much worse than McCain (although no halfway rational observer should ever have considered him the worst representative of his political camp). But he gave his critics all the ammo they could have wanted by inviting Sarah Palin as his running mate. That he could have avoided.

Back then, the press complained about having a bout of herpes. Now they're confronted with the bubonic plague, which makes them a bit nostalgic about the good ol' days when at least their noses and fingers weren't falling off. This might explain why many of today's reporters are more lenient towards someone they now regard as comparatively moderate.

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machiavelli4711 wrote:

In 2008, some journalists may not have been able to imagine anyone much worse than McCain (although no halfway rational observer should ever have considered him the worst representative of his political camp).

I still cannot imagine any American much worse than John McCain.

In 2008, I voted for Barack Obama. I had hope for him, and IMHO that hope was ruthlessly betrayed. I consider Obama to have been one of our worst presidents ever, barely better than the Bushes. But I still don't regret my vote even a tiny bit, because as bad as Obama turned out, his presidency was MUCH better for our country than a McCain presidency would have been.

I voted for Trump in 2016. That's because I sincerely believe Hillary Clinton is one of the most thoroughly corrupt politicians who has ever walked this earth. I would have literally voted for a pet cat if the GOP had nominated the cat to run against Hillary Rodham Felon. If John McCain had been the Republican nominee in 2016, I would have been with her.

We're talking about a guy who was literally exposed to POW torture and still never met a war he didn't like, didn't mind the casual commitment of literal breaking-the-Geneva-Convention war crimes, managed to make a Weird Al style parody that combined the Beach Boys with collateral damage — a euphemism for the slaughter of innocent civilians — and the worst of economic policies. He was Bushier than W and Cheney combined. The consummate warmonger. The exemplar of neoconservativism.

I must not be a halfway rational observer according to you, because I consider John McCain to have been the single worst representative of his political camp, or indeed both political camps. Even going back historically back to the founding of the United States, I feel I might need to go outside the country to find a politician I loathe more. About the best thing I can honestly say about John McCain is "well, he was better than Adolf Hitler." I hated him so much I started to develop a mild resentment for Arizonans in general, because for some crazy reason they kept electing him. Yeah, fuck you, Arizona.

And fuck John McCain.

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Khoranth wrote:

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Turtledove wrote:

Okay, I sometimes disagreed with John McCain, even so, I'm allowed to voice my respect for his service to country. Thank you.

But, if I was a journalist that wrote an article about John McCain back in 2008 then I'm not allowed to voice my respect for his service to country?

Or, are you just making up a bogey man that that supposedly "painted him as an oil baron loving demon, who would herald the end times with WW3". And that bogey man is not allowed to now voice his respect for John McCain's service to country? Let's not even go there. Let's grant that this bogey man that wrote all those terrible articles back in 2008 that besmirched John McCain does in fact exist. Now, why the heck can't this bogey man now voice his respect for John McCain's great service to country now in his death? Let's go there.

If you were a public figure, and journalist tried to cash in by painting you as the herald of satan while you ran for public office, would you want them, to then try to cash in doing nice stories about you after your death?

Clearly the journalist could care less about you, if they savagely try to destroy your character while you were alive.(and running for President, in McCain's case)

For me the answer is NO, id prefer them to keep their mouths shut, maybe your answer is Yes, that is fine, we simply disagree.

And the fact that you are suggesting it was a bogeyman from 2008 tells me, and anyone else who followed the 2008 election, you definitely werent following US politics then.

The reporting was reasonably fair in my opinion. Perhaps there were some people that felt McCain was the "herald of satan" or even "an oil baron loving demon, who would herald the end times with WW3". I would ask you to point to a respected news agency that ran any articles calling him such though? Perhaps you are speaking about a specific incident where McCain as a joke started singing "bomb bomb Iran"? This was widely reported and even caused me personal concern that someone in his position would joke like that.

In 2000 McCain's main nemesis was Bush, in 2008 his main nemesis was Obama. McCain is having them both speak at his funeral. McCain was friends with Hilary Clinton and many others in both parties. The one thing about McCain that I hope everyone can agree on is that John loved this country and was a true patriot. I love to see the whole country come together on anything. It has been very heart warming to me to see the outpouring of respect and appreciation shown John. I would not want to discourage anyone from participating, with one exception. I note that I did feel some satisfaction in reviling the terse note from the Kremlin stating their joy that an enemy of their's is now dead.

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Khoranth wrote:

Are you old enough to remember 2008 US presidential election? It was insane how viscous the liberal media was to McCain. They painted him as an oil baron loving demon, who would herald the end times with WW3.

I would agree Trump shouldn't be praising McCain either, but acting like he is the first person to savage McCain is a joke.

Either you are really you are really young, or have an extremely selective memory.

No one is 'acting like Trump is the first person to savage McCain', unless you actually believe it is crucial to find out the first culprit. I find the whole premise ridiculous. First and foremost, it's a ridiculous defense on such matter. It is even worse if you take it as a principle, which I guess people do. And last but not least, at least in my country we pay respect to our veterans. They may not be perfect heroes, but they all went through hell. During the 70's there were people in the far left that didn't pay theirs -stalinists mostly, we called them taistolaiset ('taistoism') named after a local politician Taisto Sinisalo- but it was their disgrace, and still is. Now, I wasn't there but I've read my piece of history and I've seen how elder people talk about it.

How is it working for you?

McCain is not familiar enough to me, so I cannot dissect everything he represented in his life. But I am quite sure even men like aforementioned Adolf Hitler have better qualities in them than is depicted by people talking. Talking is easy. You can point where he failed in his personal or political life, yet pointing is moot. I don't give a f*ck about Trump cult around him. I mean, Americans have a vice president who holds a flat earth world view. Somehow that one doesn't count whilst pointing faults in individual political views, because he is one of 'our men'. If we really want to play a finger-pointing game, why not start with better qualities among men? What is the vision of current American presidency? You tell me.

Everything else equal, for some reason Trump followers anyhow seem to think others should respect a president for constantly attacking other people. Well, attacking others' faults is easy. All you need is a twitter account.

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

I consider Obama to have been one of our worst presidents ever...

Why?

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Donnerdrummel wrote:

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

I consider Obama to have been one of our worst presidents ever...

Why?

The Bush administration invented the surveillance state by writing the Patriot Act and forcing it through Congress. The Obama administration perfected the surveillance state with the PRISM program as revealed by Edward Snowden, after Obama hypocritically ran against the Bush programs in 2008. I rate Obama as either third or fourth worst US President, depending on my feelings towards the elder Bush on that given day; Nixon and Bush Jr were both definitively worse.

Since PRISM is a program that started before Obama and Trump has not ended it (nor has he shown any inclination to do so), it probably is not the only reason you believe that Obama has been such a bad president. It fits into the picture I have of you, though, that mass surveillance is the main reason you name. After all, you seem to want to cut back the state and its options as far as possible. And with regard to mass surveillance, I tend to agree - strongly.

Thats only one aspect, though. I assume that among other reasons you would name early might be the facts that the US is still engaged in Afghanistan, has still not closed Guantanamo Prison, or has not put a lid on the opioid crisis. Maybe it's the bailouts and the socialization of the crash's costs? Because there's hardly any topic where he did not inherit the desasters of his predecessors. In fact, one might argue that the financial crisis and the following rise of the teaparty-boneheads put the republican party in the mood to not allow compromises, thus making Obama's presidency one of the hardest so far.

But it's not even a "a messed up Situation, hence many things were left undone", it's one of the worst presidents instead. Now, the results count, and not intentions. Also, a good man at the wrong time can still be an unsuccessful president if he gets nothing done. I would probably use different words to express that I don't see him at fault in the way you seem to, but thats me.

Yet you reap the rewards of his work with the currently strong economy in the US. US military engagement went down. Introduced healthcare reform (although you probably don't see this as an upside). Improved regulation for Wall Street (you might see that as a negative, too).

Also, that sad wrack Trump sits directly in front of you, smiling his witless, arrogant smile, when he is not busy playing with his smartphone or pulling "alternative facts" of of his arse.

But I won't go into asking anyone now for a statement to that moron. My question relates to Obama, and I elaborate: what are the reasons for your opinion that Obama is such bad a president, and what would have been necessary for you to name him a good president?

(from home now)

tl;dr:

The one point you made is not a convincing argument, since it does not differentiate from his predecessor or his successor. The argument can be made that he was unsuccessful in some of his ventures. But that would be described better with the word unsuccessful than with the word bad. Bad holds a judgement that does not include the circumstances. Also, you seem to ignore the upsides of his presidency.

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Donnerdrummel wrote:

The one point you made is not a convincing argument, since it does not differentiate from his predecessor or his successor. The argument can be made that he was unsuccessful in some of his ventures. But that would be described better with the word unsuccessful than with the word bad. Bad holds a judgement that does not include the circumstances. Also, you seem to ignore the upsides of his presidency.

I think this is good criticism. Honestly my post was at best half-baked.

Going back to the drawing board: I feel there are two discrete categories of actionable issues for elected officials: promises and improvisations. For both of these two categories, you can rank your agreement or disagreement along a continuous two-dimensional spectrum. However, it's important to me, if not to people in general, that broken promises please no one. For instance, let's take Obama's promise to close the US prison installation at Guantanamo Bay. If he breaks that promise (and he did), then those who wanted it closed feel betrayed, and those who wanted it kept open (although I can't imagine why they would) would see him as a liar. Because of this, I tend to focus far more on the "promises" category than on the "improvisation" category.

From that specific perspective, Trump is a much better president than Obama. I readily agree that Trump has a looser relationship with facts than Obama does, but I don't expect people selling policies to refrain from exaggeration in their zealous advocacy of the policies they promised to enact. Instead I expect them to produce the results they said they'd achieve, no matter what they need say to make it happen. Trump said he'd enact a travel ban; he did. Trump said he'd stop the TPP; he did. Trump said the Iran deal was a mistake; he let it expire. Obama said he'd make healthcare cheaper; he didn't. Obama said ten years ago that he'd end the Afghanistan war; the Trump administration is headed to peace talks with the Taliban currently.

The thing about fact-checking outlets is they always respond to statements just uttered and look back to see if it's true; they don't hold onto promises just uttered and wait to see if they come true or not (arguably their audience lacks the attention span for such endeavours). Trump lies about the past, and often. Obama lied about the future, and often. I don't live in the past. I will live in the future.

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

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Donnerdrummel wrote:

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

I consider Obama to have been one of our worst presidents ever...

Why?

The Bush administration invented the surveillance state by writing the Patriot Act and forcing it through Congress. The Obama administration perfected the surveillance state with the PRISM program as revealed by Edward Snowden, after Obama hypocritically ran against the Bush programs in 2008. I rate Obama as either third or fourth worst US President, depending on my feelings towards the elder Bush on that given day; Nixon and Bush Jr were both definitively worse.

That's a goddamn awful presidency. Did anyone experience a 'change' he promised? Obama was a show man, that is what he knew well. However, his aggressive surveillance policy has deteriorated public trust. All I will know for sure is my own point on the issue, unless unknown facts will convince me otherwise.

edit: I removed following essay. Not because there was anything indecent said on my behalf, but because further personal editing demanded it. There needs to be more thought put to work than I could afford on such short notice. The community does deserve my sincere thanks for inspiring it, though.