Trade Manifesto
" "A trade-specific blacklist to hide item listings from abusive players." You just wasted 3 seconds reading this.
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" Geez, I wonder why that is happening, your trading system is so amazing! /s Can't say I expected anything better, knowing your core ideas about trading and how stubborn you are about them. What a tremandous waste of time though! People will still use poe.trade since it is faster anyway(proof: https://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/7afj38/comparison_in_live_search_speed_poetrade_vs/). Last edited by MadScientist92 on Nov 3, 2017, 11:30:52 AM
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" Whether you agree with this poster's specific suggestion or not, the gist here is correct. Most of us agree that currency sinks are a good thing for the game, since they help mediate inflation. The devaluation of items that you fear will happen when trade becomes easy is an exactly analogous inflation. Incorporating a better item sink, similar to currency sinks, by giving greater returns for vendoring items with certain mods as well as (of course) uniques, will have a similar effect. And you need not create new assets for this to happen. Just give a guaranteed alch for every unique that is vendored. Or chaos, if you prefer (chaoses are not that hard to get). The actual value is negotiable. The issue is that unique vendor values (for example) are so ridiculously low that uniques are often left on the ground!!! So of course any unique that might pull in a chaos is going to go straight onto the market, making it super-easy to acquire. Wash your hands, Exile!
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GGG...
What took you so long? And on that note, when will we have trade functionality in-game to do away with the PMs back and forth? A simple trade UI element with PM functionality and trading (not automated) that works across multiple leagues would solve the trade nightmare once and for all now that you have this first piece to the puzzle. ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄
▒▒▒▒░░░░░ cipher_nemo ░░░░░▒▒▒▒ │ Waggro Level: ♠○○○○ │ 1244 ▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀ |
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Glad you guys think a lot about what is best for the game and not just blindly implement what people cry out for.
It's important to think about the game and the ecosystem as a whole and not satisfy only the needs of a particular group of players. Thank you for the manifesto! suggestion: would be useful if we could also see the current league of the trader. | |
" This was actually addressed some time ago... It was first brought up shortly after Ascension (Update 2.2.0) came out, and players promptly complained about being unable to trade while in GGG's precious Labyrinth... With them apparently having not thought of that being an issue. We'd initially been promised a cross-league/instance trade method, but that was quietly shelved, and eventually, the explanation given was that it'd still make trade "too easy" for their tastes. On an aside, seriously, what's everyone's problem with a non-interactive form of trade? No game systems I'm aware of are TRULY automated. In all of them:
Literally, the only part GGG arbitrarily has left in is the requirement to narrow it to people actually online, paying attention, not scamming, and willing to drop whatever they're doing to trade, so that the two parties can perform the last couple clicks together. Before Chris admitted it was just all about arbitrary speed bumps/roadblocks (That are driving players away from the game) he claimed it was all about "fostering player interaction," but who actually does that anymore? For years, all we've done is:
The above must be really enriching to the experience, right? :V Rufalius, hybrid Aura/Arc/Mana Guardian | Hemorae, TS Raider | Wuru, Ele Hit Wand Trickster Last edited by ACGIFT on Nov 3, 2017, 12:04:41 PM
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Uh-uh. Nope. Not acceptable.
You're not just operating on "different ends of the spectrum" in terms of consoles and PC -- you are ACTIVELY disadvantaging console players by creating artificial restrictions -- in terms of search parameters which can be employed to look for specific affixes -- which actually make builds VIABLE or FUNCTIONAL. This is especially true of jewels and jewelry. There are plenty of builds which don't use threshhold jewels which require really specific stat allocations and affixes on their jewels just to function at the endgame. This isn't an experiment in "which system is best" -- the end game, and viability in completing it, is the only real metric by which you can measure attainment. If a build isn't viable to complete Shaper, it's incapable of actually experiencing ALL the game's content. And you're essentially ensuring that for an array of builds for which that limitation does not exist on PC. It represents an entire paradigm shift. You're ACTIVELY allowing PC users to experience more of the content by increasing their access, with far less restriction, to find items they need to complete more builds which can see that content. That's not acceptable. I don't care if it's difficult. The API should be uniform, and all of its features should be uniform, across all platforms. Last edited by aiglos78 on Nov 3, 2017, 2:31:49 PM
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First off, I really appreciate a post on your trading stance. Whether I agree or disagree, it is nice to have an official word so that debates can be constructive.
Even though it won't change your mind ... here are some points that I disagree with as food for thought. " Except the issue with this statement is that only the 1st character in a league is in this place. Once I have a single high level character I immediately resort to leveling uniques for all subsequent characters. I fail to see how this progression exists for 2nd, 3rd, etc. characters in a league. " I see what you are saying. But isn't this completely contrary to poe.trade and the site you just put out for beta? I mean if I want something and can afford it - I will still be able to get it. I think the majority of the backlash you get from the community on trading is around how incredibly frustrating interactions can be between players. If I need the item I am still going to power past that - albeit more disgruntled than before. " Not going to argue with you on this one. This would totally happen. Some people relish in making currency and that is apparent in all games (this one included as seen by flippers). The only way to ever combat this is to go the route that WoW did so long ago and lock key items from trade and provide an acceptable gear progression. They also made currency easy to obtain for those who were willing to put in the time. I don't really think either of these are in your vision for this game, so I'll leave it at that. " I can respect your concerns. Only thing I will add here is that all you are really doing is purposely avoiding resolution to an annoying part of your game. Again, if I want the item I will get it. 15 ignores and buying an overpriced item later ... I will still get it. I'll just be saltier after the exchange. " I think this is the best part of your post and brings up a very interesting point. You are spot on regarding many players using SSF as a challenge. However, I also think there is a sizable potion of players who would love to play SSF and be done with the trading thing altogether - if they had a higher drop rate of items and currency. This would require having basically a never ending void league so it couldn't merge with others. But ultimately allows your vision of gear progression and farming. The difference is that players can realistically equip their characters in a mode like this. Your game is superior to Grim Dawn in so many aspects. But when I go back to this game between breaks I can't help but feel like this is the one place where you really miss the mark in POE. Trading is such a polarizing thing because so few people can put in the time to equip your characters solo. I'll stop arguing trade forever if you give me a mode where it is no longer necessary. | |
" nah mate, trade adds so much value to the stuff you loot because the amount of stuff that is good for someone among 100,000 people compared to something that is only specifically good for you is vast. Trade adds an extreme amount of value to the loot hunt. Trade is not the cliff, generating items is the cliff, you want and need items, when you have them then the loot hunt is done and you fall off the cliff. A loot hunt game is an inherently self destructing system, it has a life span just like a story based game, you cant change this fundamental nature. the trade and drop systems dont punish players, they give the game longevity which gives the players more time to enjoy the game. They are positive things for players, its just that players are not always perceptive enough to appreciate this. " yeah, look lets be honest here, if a drop is good or bad, thats a comparative view point. One comparison is vs the content, are people beating all the content in ssf leagues? Yes. Ok so we can say that drops are good enough to beat the game. The other comparison is drops compared to other drops, people are looking at the items other people have, looking at their drops and saying my gear is shit compared to what a lot of people are using. Problem here is people comparing traded for drops, the best items found by 10,000s of players combined, vs the best items they, 1 person, finds. Your drops are 10,000x worse? Not quite, but it doesnt take a rocket scientist to work out that they are almost always going to be worse. The best items you find in ssf are the good items, you cant compare them to trade items. Its a relative situation, you cant say ur drops are shit because they are what they are, the best ones are good and the worst are bad, you cant say the best drops u get are shit in a general theoretical sense because you can only compare them to your drops. You can say the drops you got today or this week are shit compared to drops you got in other weeks, but that is a very different point to "you can only find shit items". Im actually a little surprised the fundamental, irrefutable logic of the mechanics in hand is beyond peoples ability to grasp. ps I take ur boots and raise you... self found shoes :D not 6x t1 tho... I seen 6x t1 boots up for mirroring... OMG MY DROPS SUCK!!!!! CHRIS WHY U NO FIX!!!!! " come on mate u know that doesnt make sense, its not one way, something like that cant be one way thats impossible, its a relative relationship. " but its not really reducing the quality of the user experience, thats a microscopic perspective, its vastly increasing the quality in important areas by throttling the quality by a far smaller amount in a less important area. Its a net huge gain in user experience and hence essentially necessary. " word, a lot of sense in this post. Only place Im gonna disagree is that I think overall drop rates do need to be reduced for uniques. All unique items should have their drops reduced to about 1/4 of what we have now with power uniques like rats nest, starkonjas, nightmare bascinets, lioneyes bow, shavs, bla blah blah, all the power uniques need their drops reduced to about 1/10 of what they are now, not even joking, 1/10. Were living in an ssf drop rate system atm and the trade economy is getting fucked so quickly in leagues, powercreep is massive, required effort is pathetic. Put back trade drop rates and give the game back its lifespan. All these ppl talking about player retention in leagues, its the gear proliferation thats the problem, 6 link div cards, power uniques worth 1c because of drop rates and prophecies, its fucked. Make items worth something again, sort out the reckless drop rates on op div cards and power uniques. |
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" ^^^ This. Excellent response! All that and a bag of chips!
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