[3.7] Ahfack's Crimson Cyclone | Shaper FULL Life Kill Vid | 100% Pure Phys | All Content | PoBs

Cyclone dudeys,

Need some help if you please - have just started this build and going well so far. I'm at lvl 41, just got to act5 and have hit a flat spot whereas I must still grab the leech nodes so have to run sunder until then. Do you think once I grab the leech nodes from tree I could switch to cyclone?

Also, the gear comments to perhaps use starforge as an alternative is great thx...was contemplating what to use whilst saving for Disfavor. So having mentioned that, Starforge would still be better than Hezmana's right?

I linked my gear below as I need some guidance on what to start changing - the unique axe? The helm is a given, but what should I go for? Perhaps a rare until I get a Daresso's?

What other rings / boots / gloves etc (rare's or uniques).

thank you

"

SolemnKnight wrote:

Im still debating between starforge or disfavour though the starforge is probably cheaper prices wise.

Starforge is unequivocally better than Disfavour. More damage, flat 100 life, cheaper. I really don't know why this guide recommends Disfavour. An extra ~20% chance to bleed on hit (100% w/ Disfavour vs 88% w/ Starforge) is a nearly non-existent change in DPS on fights where bleed matters (and is actually a non-existent change in bleed DPS for the other 99.9% of content), and you're giving up 100 flat life and 10% more damage (even including fights where bleed matters) for it - no thanks.

Math, including bleed damage (and being very generous about it), if'n anyone is interested:



tl;dr: The importance of having 100% bleed chance is being massively overstated in the guide, Starforge does better DPS straight up and gives you 100 flat life and is cheaper. Get a Starforge.

"

Thukker wrote:

"

SolemnKnight wrote:

Im still debating between starforge or disfavour though the starforge is probably cheaper prices wise.

Starforge is unequivocally better than Disfavour. More damage, flat 100 life, cheaper. I really don't know why this guide recommends Disfavour. An extra ~20% chance to bleed on hit (100% w/ Disfavour vs 88% w/ Starforge) is a nearly non-existent change in DPS on fights where bleed matters (and is actually a non-existent change in bleed DPS for the other 99.9% of content), and you're giving up 100 flat life and 10% more damage (even including fights where bleed matters) for it - no thanks.

Math, including bleed damage (and being very generous about it), if'n anyone is interested:

Spoiler

For this calculation we are going to use time-to-kill (TTK) on Shaper, as it is one of the only fights where consistent dodging to avoid death, thus enabling bleed damage to be a relevant, is necessary.

Here's a pastebin for the trees I'm using: https://pastebin.com/Mx2WCTb3
Both trees are at 95 points, both trees identical with the exception of using the sword wheels or the axe wheels, but here is the relevant information.

GEAR:

Notes: Both the Disfavour and the Starforge are max rolled. This unrealistically favors the Disfavour as it is much cheaper to get a nearly max rolled Starforge. The gear is otherwise than the shown jewels exactly what my character is wearing.

SKILLGEMS:

COMBAT:

STARFORGE INFO:

DISFAVOUR INFO:

Per the Wiki, Shaper has 20190261 health (sHP). Because we have 20% Slayer cull, Shaper EHP (sEHP) becomes:

sEHP = sHP * 0.8 = 20190261 * 0.8
sEHP = 16152208.8

Next we'll factor out the difference in bleed DPS caused by having 100% chance to bleed vs 88% chance to bleed. It is important to note that both Starforge and Disfavour will saturate to the maximum eight bleed stacks very quickly and as a result will not change the DPS done after Cyclone is stopped.

Disfavour's time-to-maximum bleed stacks (TTM) at 5.64 attacks-per-second (APS) is:

TTM = 8 / APS = 8 / 5.56
TTM = 1.42 seconds

For Starforge we'll first have to figure an effective bleed attacks per second at 88% chance:

Effective APS for bleed = 6.18 * 0.88 = 5.44

TTM = 8 / APS = 8 / 5.44
TTM = 1.47 seconds

Realistically you can already see the writing on the wall here, but we'll keep going.

Disfavour is at maximum bleed stacks for 0.18 seconds longer than Starforge for each re-application of all bleed stacks, and because each stack of bleed is doing 5940.7 DPS this means that each time this is to occur, Disfavour is causing 1069.4 more total damage than Starforge with bleed for each re-application cycle.

In the Shaper fight I am going to approximate that you will necessarily need to re-apply bleed a dozen (12) times. This brings the total damage done as a result of having 100% vs 88% bleed damage to:

disfavourBleedDamageAdvantage = 1069.4 * 12 = 12832.8

We'll simply subtract this extra damage gained from Shaper's total HP for the damage calc for Disfavour and then look at TTK.

disfavourTTK = (16152208.8 - 12832.8) / [284722.1 + (5940.7 * 8)] = 54.5 seconds

starforgeTTK = 16152208.8 / [309525.4 + (5829.8 * 8)] = 45.4 seconds

tl;dr: The importance of having 100% bleed chance is being massively overstated in the guide, Starforge does better DPS straight up and gives you 100 flat life and is cheaper. Get a Starforge.

Disfavor is not only bleed as you mentined, its also weapon range which is critical for cyclne.
sametime could you share your rebuilded tree for skyforge (axe > sword nodes)

"

ment2008 wrote:

Disfavor is not only bleed as you mentined, its also weapon range which is critical for cyclne.
sametime could you share your rebuilded tree for skyforge (axe > sword nodes)

The range is identical thanks to +1 range from Razor's Edge and the 20% AOE on Starforge. You can see this in pictured weapon stats.

Also the trees (as linked) are as efficient as need be. There is no amount of skill points saved for Disfavour that saves it from the truth that Starforge is better.

anyone mind sharing starforge passive tree? im really interested in trying starforge after reading your posts

"

Kickowsky wrote:

anyone mind sharing starforge passive tree? im really interested in trying starforge after reading your posts

Same here. Just like the weapon looks better

"

Thukker wrote:

"

SolemnKnight wrote:

Im still debating between starforge or disfavour though the starforge is probably cheaper prices wise.

Starforge is unequivocally better than Disfavour. More damage, flat 100 life, cheaper. I really don't know why this guide recommends Disfavour. An extra ~20% chance to bleed on hit (100% w/ Disfavour vs 88% w/ Starforge) is a nearly non-existent change in DPS on fights where bleed matters (and is actually a non-existent change in bleed DPS for the other 99.9% of content), and you're giving up 100 flat life and 10% more damage (even including fights where bleed matters) for it - no thanks.

Math, including bleed damage (and being very generous about it), if'n anyone is interested:

Spoiler

For this calculation we are going to use time-to-kill (TTK) on Shaper, as it is one of the only fights where consistent dodging to avoid death, thus enabling bleed damage to be a relevant, is necessary.

Here's a pastebin for the trees I'm using: https://pastebin.com/Mx2WCTb3
Both trees are at 95 points, both trees identical with the exception of using the sword wheels or the axe wheels, but here is the relevant information.

GEAR:

Notes: Both the Disfavour and the Starforge are max rolled. This unrealistically favors the Disfavour as it is much cheaper to get a nearly max rolled Starforge. The gear is otherwise than the shown jewels exactly what my character is wearing.

SKILLGEMS:

COMBAT:

STARFORGE INFO:

DISFAVOUR INFO:

Per the Wiki, Shaper has 20190261 health (sHP). Because we have 20% Slayer cull, Shaper EHP (sEHP) becomes:

sEHP = sHP * 0.8 = 20190261 * 0.8
sEHP = 16152208.8

Next we'll factor out the difference in bleed DPS caused by having 100% chance to bleed vs 88% chance to bleed. It is important to note that both Starforge and Disfavour will saturate to the maximum eight bleed stacks very quickly and as a result will not change the DPS done after Cyclone is stopped.

Disfavour's time-to-maximum bleed stacks (TTM) at 5.64 attacks-per-second (APS) is:

TTM = 8 / APS = 8 / 5.56
TTM = 1.42 seconds

For Starforge we'll first have to figure an effective bleed attacks per second at 88% chance:

Effective APS for bleed = 6.18 * 0.88 = 5.44

TTM = 8 / APS = 8 / 5.44
TTM = 1.47 seconds

Realistically you can already see the writing on the wall here, but we'll keep going.

Disfavour is at maximum bleed stacks for 0.18 seconds longer than Starforge for each re-application of all bleed stacks, and because each stack of bleed is doing 5940.7 DPS this means that each time this is to occur, Disfavour is causing 1069.4 more total damage than Starforge with bleed for each re-application cycle.

In the Shaper fight I am going to approximate that you will necessarily need to re-apply bleed a dozen (12) times. This brings the total damage done as a result of having 100% vs 88% bleed damage to:

disfavourBleedDamageAdvantage = 1069.4 * 12 = 12832.8

We'll simply subtract this extra damage gained from Shaper's total HP for the damage calc for Disfavour and then look at TTK.

disfavourTTK = (16152208.8 - 12832.8) / [284722.1 + (5940.7 * 8)] = 54.5 seconds

starforgeTTK = 16152208.8 / [309525.4 + (5829.8 * 8)] = 45.4 seconds

tl;dr: The importance of having 100% bleed chance is being massively overstated in the guide, Starforge does better DPS straight up and gives you 100 flat life and is cheaper. Get a Starforge.

Did you consider that Disfavour is giving +2 to all Support Gems socketed? Can´t see this in your calculation ...

I'm also at a point now where I need to start applying points to either axe or swords...I like both starforge and atziri's disfavor but a starting disfavor is 9ex whereas starforge is 4ex. I told myself I'd grind uber lab to help save enough currency for the axe, and then saw the calculations and dmg logic behind it and it makes for just as good (if not in certain cases better). However...the axe nodes gives you a lot more dmg than the swords (just from me observing and comparing the different wheels)....the swords have the +1 and starforge has the additional life, but are we not going to lose out on some dps?

Hi,

and thanks for that great Guide. I started playing Cyclone yesterday following strait your Guide and im still 1hitting everthing on the way (im 61 now, says i can equip Kondos Pride now what doubles the Damage from Terminus Est nearly). This feels really funny. At the moment i wear kondos 5link, unlinked belly, 2 res/liferings without damage, no helm so far, wanderlust and haemophilia (because so i have 90% Bleedchance and massiv bleeddamage).

I was checking the Skilltree and i have a little Question, escpecially because im going to use Swords maybe (much cheaper at the Moment... my Kondos with 430 Dmg and 5 Link = 12 C, Starforge is about 5Ex vs Atziri 10Ex... do expensive for me). I think btw. that this Kondo`s Sword is really no bad option for this price when using Resolute Techniques i think? The downside of not leeching at critting is negated, so we get a more than 350% phys damage sword. Thats not so far to starforge. Sure the Axe would be better but not for this price. //Haze i think deals significant lower damage doesnt it?

Sword have another nice Point i feel, because you get 1 more Weaponrange on the Swordwheel on the botten left side.

But my real Quest is: I wonder, why you go the Tree UP from Master the Arena, i can save some Points by going on the way botten left, from Crimson to Swordwheel (Sword is 1 Point under Axe, so maybe the saving points differ a litte).

BUT:

Going on the botten left side, i can take Bloodless and Juggernaut Note in the Tree = 33 % more Life!

What i miss for that = the attack speed under the scion life wheel and 1 Juwelslot therer

My: Tree (106 Points)
https://poeplanner.com/AAsAAOsACxQAAHKbLV85ivDEgrCrvqdlTb02R36E2amUh2qQbKknhO_awXTtBS1670CgXhPvTmFSRZphIRpVWp8tMEWpZrYhYHTxKaWPYG8nmmohVSz7iiInINw9B3XApoZgOlIOPBRxG6oQ8PJagTrBB9d-Yxf46-oY9zJ82XKpxPbGrjwtg1-DzLc-_grYvTWS_o9N46ZXOuHyRQthr2xo8vAfogAEs8BmPAXvfHasz37z3Whl2XyCB7yfGJH8SxRNrj5nm-RRUEfvDhQgXz-XeQmWOQ4uU9NvRJ5Tu7KAhrSFpyefpTUMcDu29WEAAAAAAA==

Your: Tree (106 Points)
https://poeplanner.com/AAsAAOsACxQAAHKbLV85ivDEgrCrvqdlTb02R36E2amUh2qQbKknhO_awXTtBS1670CgXhPvTmFSRZphIRpVWp8tMEWpZrYhYHTxKaWPYG8nmmohVSz7iiInINw9B3XApoZgOlIOPBRxG6oQ8PJagTrBB9d-Yxf46-oY9zJ82XKpxPbGrjwtg1-DzLc-_grYvTWS_o9N46ZXOuHyRQthr2xo8vAfogAEs8BmPAXvfHasz37z3Whl2XyCB7yfGJH8SxRNrj5nm-RRUEfvDhQgXz-XeQmWOQ4uU9NvRJ5Tu7KAhrSFpyefpTUMcDu29WEAAAAAAA==

Is that Attackspeed so important that i can miss up about 30% Life? Would be nice, if you answer me, maybe i didnt understant something wrong.

What i really wonder too, is it worth to take Ironreflexes? Insted of IronR + Leech above it, we could get again more life by investing on life up area (Devontion = 5 Points 18% life).

Maybe it is because my Equipment is most times so bad, that i need more life than you with this incredible stuff.

However, maybe my opinions could be discussed.

Dont you think my tree is, especially for lower gear/sword, bett optimized?

Thanks a lot and
Happy Zocking!

Hey guys! Mobile today, so can't contribute too much, only what I see at face value.

If you want to use a Starforge, then use a Starforge and keep it moving. This has already been discussed in the thread many times and is in the FAQ.

As far as calculating everything in PoB: Not exactly accurate with this build. There will always be theory results and actual applied results.

Also, the Ruthless bleed stacks from our totem isn't mentioned at all. In fact, looking at the character sheet on my phone that was used for calculating dmg, you don't even use AW Totem at all! You are no longer comparing Disfavour/Starforge on THIS build, but your build. My build doesn't only use cyclone on bosses, but a combination of Cyclone and AW. AW totem is extremely useful for bosses, and is discussed multiple times; in the thread and in the video. Our cyclone bleed stacks are not what matter as much on shaper, but our Totem's Ruthless bleed stacks.

If we have 100% chance to bleed with our cyclone, then our totem has 75%, due to no chance to bleed support gem. Every 3 hits is a ruthless hit, with a 75% chance to build a ruthless bleed stack in conjunction with crimson dance. With Starforge, the chance for a ruthless hit to build a bleed stack is lower. You can calculate this in PoB all you want, but this part has many variables and will never reflect real world application.

Also, shaper isn't the only content in the game. The real-world 100% uptime of FREE onslaught we gain from our axe nodes is very nice during mapping, and if your clear speed is optimal, you often have onslaught up when you are fighting a boss as well.

As stated in the guide, this was made in standard. Axe is 2.5ex, Starforge is 3ex in standard - Check for yourself. There are a lot more axes floating around on standard than starforges, thus making them cheaper overall. In league, more people farm shaper because many would consider him easier than Uber Atziri. Isn't it funny we measure dick size in this game on PoB in shaper DPS when he's not even the hardest boss in game? hahaha :)

In conclusion:

Starforge is a great sword, and plenty of other builds showcase that. If you'd like to use a starforge, use a starforge - However I prefer Disfavour. Consider me an axe man I guess :). I made this build specifically with a disfavour in mind.