Changes to the Labyrinth

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Zoen wrote:

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Johny_Snow wrote:

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Zoen wrote:

Just to use this thread as an example...I don't think ~250 people would qualify as the "overwhelming majority" of players. Maybe if Path of Exile only had 300 people playing it in total and not several ten or hundred thousand.

If they wanted full, official results, they'd have to run their own polls.

You are dodging.

How do they know that the "overwhelming majority" want breaches to stay and legacy league to be extended if they don't read the forums and don't go with the most popular opinions on them? Same as lab, but instead it is completely ignored because it doesn't fit what they want to do with the game.

If I was "dodging", I wouldn't be responding. Period. But again, let's look at it this way:

I don't know the latest player numbers for Path of Exile, but for the purpose of this example, let's just say it's 100,000 unique players. If they only get a few hundred unique posts against something in the game, but nothing from the other 99,000 players, do you think their line of logic is going to be "oh, these other 99,000 players who are still playing the same content these other players absolutely hate must also hate it!" Most likely not. Those people who are playing the content are more-than-likely getting some form of enjoyment out of it, otherwise they wouldn't be doing it (or doing it for long).

This is why I mentioned a poll as being the only real way to get the full answer.

Now if you'll excuse me, I've got work to go do.

Thats not the point.

If they are already implementing things the majority of the forum goers propose/like why the lab is the exception where they claim only the vocal minority hates it? Seems double standards to me.

Please add some difficulty to counteract the power creep...

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theoneandonly33 wrote:

Lab really is one of the best things in the game IMO. It's very important that it guards the ascendancy points, as they are waay too powerful to be given out for free. Also learn how to do the lab instead of hating it.

It's not about knowing how to do Lab. Lab is easy (for me) and it's a waste of my time. The only time I've ever actually died in Lab is when the servers took a dump.

The problem with lab is it's a puzzle/platforming level in an ARPG, which the majority of players don't want. I'd actually rather have it just be some Izaro fights set up in a similar manner to Daresso's level(s) with a reward density to time ratio similar to the current one.

The traps are just ... not fun. Especially in hardcore. The only allure is the ascendancy, but this just makes it an annoying distraction. Time would be much better spent replacing this with something else.

Although I follow the development and try to read every news article I rarely ever feel the need to post.

This is one of those times I felt like I have to share my thoughts.

First of all, the removal of difficulty levels and not having to play the same content over and over again is one of the greatest improvements in the ARPG genre. For that reason alone, after the release of the expansion I will create time and continue to play the game until I have a true endgame character that can do all content with relative ease for the first time.

As for the labyrinth, it's a very fun part of the game. I really like the concept and the challenge. I also remember feeling like I had to complete it for those ascendancy points. But it was proven very challenging to create a decent party that would see the end of it or complete it solo. I initially refused to do cruel content to gain levels and then returning to it because I would spend considerable amount of time on repetitive content that I wouldn't want to spend on. Still, I couldn't complete the lab at that level and neither I could find a decent party, so I did some cruel content unwillingly and then returned to it and completed it. Although I felt satisfied in the end, the process itself was frustrating and I thought I would never repeat the same process again. But the fact that ascendancy points were tied to it, my character wouldn't feel complete without doing other labs if I ever wanted to play further. Anyhow, I didn't like playing the same content over again so I stopped there.

Back to the news, the joy I felt when I learned that other difficulties were dropped is partly gone now. Since those ascendancy points are tied to labs, there is still mandatory content that has to be played over and over again. 4 times to be exact. This process completely conflcts with the very first idea that removed those difficulties from the game. I'm 100% certain I won't enjoy playing the lab more than once but I'm gonna have to because of ascendancy points.

This is different than playing maps or farming areas for loot. While you are playing maps, you encounter randomly modded areas, random encounters, random bosses and random tilesets along with random rewards. When you farm areas for items you have a specific goal in mind but you never know when you will get what you want or even if you will get it at all. So, when you get it, it feels satisfying. This is a true endgame. But as for the labyrinth, you'll encounter the same boss, the same boss mechanics, the same tilesets, the same story to get the same specific reward which you were promised to get from the very beginning. Sure, you encounter some random loot, randomized rooms and random trash mobs throughout the process but you didn't get into the area for those kind of things but just 2 ascendancy points. And those randomized bits don't break the repetitive mood. They are not enough to save it from being a tedious chore.

I would suggest increasing the requirements to take part in the lab and making the lab a bit longer than it is atm but the complete labyrinth itself should be played only once towards the end. 2 Ascendancy points can be given when you reach levels 50 and 60. And the last 4 can be earned by completing the labyrinth. Also, you can give 2/2/4 points depending on the boss phases players complete in that 1 long lab run. This would also encourage players take part in the lab runs more since you get something even if you only complete one boss phase.

Another suggestion would be adding one more boss phase (or not), cutting the lab into 4 parts (or 3) and requiring players to complete 1 boss phase for each one of the 4 (or 3) lab runs that take place around the same planned levels. When players complete one boss phase, the process is saved and players continue playing the story and they can take part in the second phase when the current planned requirements are met. The ascendancy points then can be given 2/2/2/2 or 2/2/4 when players complete each phase.

The second suggestion is the better one I think since players won't be required to play the same phases they had completed (and got the ascendancy points for) and the lab itself won't feel tedious, too long and unforgiving. Also completing the final phase will feel very rewarding with 4 ascendancy points. And this way, the final part of the labyrinth can become endgame worthy with the proper tuning of it's difficulty.

I won't feel letdown if GGG sticks with what they're planning but I just wanted to point out that this plan really conflicts with the whole point of this expansion which is increasing the average play-time of an average player by not forcing the same story content that gives fixed rewards you already expect to be played over and over again. After some time, I'm sure in-game metrics will prove what I've been trying to tell in this post. Regardless of the lab mechanics, I'm hyped for this expansion and I once again congratulate GGG for what they're achieving in the genre with Path of Exile. I'm really looking forward to the future of PoE!

If you've read this far, thank you!

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Batmanf0re wrote:

Damn, I hate lab. It's the most annoying part of the game by a huge margin. The part that bugs me isn't Izaro or the bit about having to start over if you die even though the lab is long. The part that isn't fun and frustrates me are those traps that screw you over. Moving around traps like that is cool for Crash Bandicoot but just isn't meant for a top-down game where you click to move. That's just my take although I've heard many others say that the traps are the factor that makes it not fun.

I agree with you. And for me who have a bad internet speed I can't play in Lockstep so I have to deal with many rollbacks into traps. It's really annoying and I died so many times due to this.

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yungwhiz wrote:

Please just add an opt out where you fight Izario, get your points, dont get any treasure chests or enchants.

I've been saying this for a long time now.

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Roji wrote:

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theoneandonly33 wrote:

Lab really is one of the best things in the game IMO. It's very important that it guards the ascendancy points, as they are waay too powerful to be given out for free. Also learn how to do the lab instead of hating it.

It's not about knowing how to do Lab. Lab is easy (for me) and it's a waste of my time. The only time I've ever actually died in Lab is when the servers took a dump.

The problem with lab is it's a puzzle/platforming level in an ARPG, which the majority of players don't want. I'd actually rather have it just be some Izaro fights set up in a similar manner to Daresso's level(s) with a reward density to time ratio similar to the current one.

Correction it's puzzle/platforming done wrong.

Overly punishing platforming games are generally speaking bad: Which is why most of the good platforming games nowadays have instant respawn and fast movement.

i hate Lab

and also i hate the fact that ggg hire some cheap community shrink to tell them that target audience of their game is masochistic-whiny-on-foras-bitches-who-still-gona-be-doing-whatever-nasty-and-painful-you-ever-rail-in-them ))

actually lab is ok i guess, hmmm

I like the idea someone had about Lab enchants, being able to seal them like Prophecies, and then trade for x price, to apply to any helm / glove / boots whichever the enchant is for rather than having to enchant x item. And I'd wish that'd become a thing, aswell as lowering the amount of trials needed to enter lab, honestly trials for just Normal or smth would be fine, for "new players" to learn how to deal with traps, but then it just becomes a mandatory time sink that could be spent enjoying the game in whichever way.

But that's just my opinion.