(3.12) Queenliness Wanderfinder | (∩^ᗜ ^)⊃━ - - -☆ﾟ.* | All Content (Power Siphon Kinetic Blast)

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d3s0 wrote:

@Toma

Yeah I forgot some stuff myself. Apparently with my current gear setup I would lose only 26% movespeed, coming from QotF bonus due to 57k-ish evasion. With current setup it is 237%, will be 211% in 3.1, so yeah, more than enough ^^

Other than that, I think we just dodged the bullet for 3.1 and probably 3.2 will bring more significant nerfs concerning wanders. Till then...let's party :D will wand again this league ;)

Will you still be using 5 utility flasks w/o instant leech? Seems risky to me - for the odd case of you taking damage. I have used a different flask setup for QoTF general mapping (still similar):

alchemist quicksilver of adrenaline
alchemist jade of reflexes
dying sun
vinktars
diamond.

Without instantleech, I may drop a flask for an seething life flask (will try a bit without it, but don't really see any options other than instant-flask and slayer). That's probably a vinktar's gone (the weakest flask of the 5 I think), which is quite a substantial hit. Yriel's+Vinktars combo means a way higher dmg + somewhat safer leech, but a LOT less evasion (10k vs 40-50k) and slower MS (-50% or so?)

Either way, it's a big hit.

Ofc the build remains very strong as it is, but the dmg loss is quite a bit higher than the 1 proj imo.

@tkensei: With pathfinder you want to use an "alchemist's" as a prefix for a quicksilver (eventually). The duration looks awkward at first glance, but you can easily sustain.

EDIT: corrected the flask names.

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juerk wrote:

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d3s0 wrote:

@Toma

Yeah I forgot some stuff myself. Apparently with my current gear setup I would lose only 26% movespeed, coming from QotF bonus due to 57k-ish evasion. With current setup it is 237%, will be 211% in 3.1, so yeah, more than enough ^^

Other than that, I think we just dodged the bullet for 3.1 and probably 3.2 will bring more significant nerfs concerning wanders. Till then...let's party :D will wand again this league ;)

Will you still be using 5 utility flasks w/o instant leech? Seems risky to me - for the odd case of you taking damage. I have used a different flask setup for QoTF general mapping (still similar):

alchemist quicksilver of adrenaline
alchemist quicksilver of reflexes
dying sun
vinktars
diamond.

Without instantleech, I may drop a flask for an seething life flask (will try a bit without it, but don't really see any options other than instant-flask and slayer). That's probably a vinktar's gone (the weakest flask of the 5 I think), which is quite a substantial hit. Yriel's+Vinktars combo means a way higher dmg + somewhat safer leech, but a LOT less evasion (10k vs 40-50k) and slower MS (-50% or so?)

Either way, it's a big hit.

Ofc the build remains very strong as it is, but the dmg loss is quite a bit higher than the 1 proj imo.

@tkensei: With pathfinder you want to use an "alchemist's" as a prefix for a quicksilver (eventually). The duration looks awkward at first glance, but you can easily sustain.

~ For general mapping 5 utility flasks should be good enough. We were using that before, and since pretty much nothing is hitting you anyways (yeah, t16 trashmobs are 1shotted), instaleech is not that much of a need. We will see.

~ For bossing we might need an insta flask. Still, we will see.

~ Dual Quicksilver is kinda useless for most QotF builds, since you gain same movespeed ALONG WITH DEFENSES using Stibnite + Jade combo. Having dodge capped you end up with like 87% or so to avoid attacks. Is few % of movespeed (which you will get using 2 quicksilvers) worth that? Don't think so.

~ Vinktars is a weakest flask? No mate, just no. Vinktars gives you FREE DMG + insane amount of FREE LEECH. And +max to lightning resist, of course. It's like the best flask for extra survivability in the game, hands down. How can you even think of dropping it?

~ VP nerf is not as big hit as you think. Default maximum lifeleech per second is 20% of your total life pool, with new VP it will be 40% (since it's doubled), not counting other sources like Vitality Void giving 3% in 3.1, with only those two nodes we will sit at 46% of max life leech per second. Knowing the fact that we deal insane amount of damage, full hp will be recovered in roughly 2,17sec (not knowing if there are any other adjustments on the tree). Is that really so terrible? Wouldn't say so.

~ Not really sure what other loss of damage you count, other than 1 less projectile? Nothing else is changed, mate.

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d3s0 wrote:

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juerk wrote:

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d3s0 wrote:

@Toma

Yeah I forgot some stuff myself. Apparently with my current gear setup I would lose only 26% movespeed, coming from QotF bonus due to 57k-ish evasion. With current setup it is 237%, will be 211% in 3.1, so yeah, more than enough ^^

Other than that, I think we just dodged the bullet for 3.1 and probably 3.2 will bring more significant nerfs concerning wanders. Till then...let's party :D will wand again this league ;)

Will you still be using 5 utility flasks w/o instant leech? Seems risky to me - for the odd case of you taking damage. I have used a different flask setup for QoTF general mapping (still similar):

alchemist quicksilver of adrenaline
alchemist quicksilver of reflexes
dying sun
vinktars
diamond.

Without instantleech, I may drop a flask for an seething life flask (will try a bit without it, but don't really see any options other than instant-flask and slayer). That's probably a vinktar's gone (the weakest flask of the 5 I think), which is quite a substantial hit. Yriel's+Vinktars combo means a way higher dmg + somewhat safer leech, but a LOT less evasion (10k vs 40-50k) and slower MS (-50% or so?)

Either way, it's a big hit.

Ofc the build remains very strong as it is, but the dmg loss is quite a bit higher than the 1 proj imo.

@tkensei: With pathfinder you want to use an "alchemist's" as a prefix for a quicksilver (eventually). The duration looks awkward at first glance, but you can easily sustain.

~ For general mapping 5 utility flasks should be good enough. We were using that before, and since pretty much nothing is hitting you anyways (yeah, t16 trashmobs are 1shotted), instaleech is not that much of a need. We will see.

~ For bossing we might need an insta flask. Still, we will see.

~ Dual Quicksilver is kinda useless for most QotF builds, since you gain same movespeed ALONG WITH DEFENSES using Stibnite + Jade combo. Having dodge capped you end up with like 87% or so to avoid attacks. Is few % of movespeed (which you will get using 2 quicksilvers) worth that? Don't think so.

~ Vinktars is a weakest flask? No mate, just no. Vinktars gives you FREE DMG + insane amount of FREE LEECH. And +max to lightning resist, of course. It's like the best flask for extra survivability in the game, hands down. How can you even think of dropping it?

~ VP nerf is not as big hit as you think. Default maximum lifeleech per second is 20% of your total life pool, with new VP it will be 40% (since it's doubled), not counting other sources like Vitality Void giving 3% in 3.1, with only those two nodes we will sit at 46% of max life leech per second. Knowing the fact that we deal insane amount of damage, full hp will be recovered in roughly 2,17sec (not knowing if there are any other adjustments on the tree). Is that really so terrible? Wouldn't say so.

~ Not really sure what other loss of damage you count, other than 1 less projectile? Nothing else is changed, mate.

I obviously meant Alchemist's Jade flask of reflexes, instead of the 2. quicksilver. I don't like the stibnite because I don't think I have room for it (I know people were using it instead of dying sun for VPS and it's BiS in that case). Stibnite > Quicksilver is debatable for a generic 3.0 build (probably true for your setup, but I like running Esh's mirror over an evasion shield). With the QotF changes, I get a net loss of 59% MS for swapping alchemist's stibnite of adrenaline in for a similar rolled quicksilver flask (Assuming the cap at 100%-25% =75% MS).

VP not that big of a nerf? Come on, 40 or 46% of a life leeched per second IS terrible compared to VP (100% life in 0.1-0.2 seconds). There are plenty of situations where you can't afford a 2-seconds buffer to get up to full, even while doing normal map bosses or beyond. Don't get me wrong, the new VP is a strong defensive mechanic, but I'm not sure if it's enough on it's own in some tricky encounters (beyond, some map bosses, random shaped/elder bosses idk)
I'm fully aware of KB trash clearing possibilities, having played a character with 40k KB tooltip PRE Esh's mirror+flasks+charges (100k+ buffed), but things can happen and I would rather have a safety net beyond the 2sec long leech (let alone with the exp nerfs).


Thanks for explaining me about Vinktars. I agree that it's still a strong flask in 3.1 (that's why I consider dropping QotF for it!) but quite a bit weaker than it is now. It's a nice QoL and I would rather keep the flask, but you don't need 20% leech to cap the new VP anyway. Extra lightning res is less important compared to 3.0 as well.

Granted, I messed up the flask names (which is easily noticeable because I posted a standard setup, but its still my fault), but I still don't see what I could drop over Vinktars, as I explained here+in the previous post. You failed to name your flask of choice to drop instead though ;). Switching to an instant-flask mid map isn't really an option imo (unless we're talking about guardians).

~ Flask setup + my choice.
Personally, I will test out in the start of mapping if it's possible to still run without a life flask, that's a thing we all need to look at, and that's very dependable on gear setup. Well, if we need to drop some of the flasks, I would personally drop Jade. Despite the fact that it gives the highest MS boost, it is still the weakest flask in my opinion (Stibnite's Smoke cloud > evasion + MS increase imho). Dying Sun, Vinktar and Diamond must stay for sure, so it's either Stib or Jade. I would drop Jade.
Before even playing in 3.1, I believe only couple of T15 and all T16 could even need flask swap. But we will see.

~ Stibnite.
The 100% evasion part is only a secondary thing. The smoke cloud is too OP to not use, since we use Point Blank (I believe it will still be worth using in 3.1). Literally 50% increased chance to avoid hits, already having high evasion and dodge, it's too good to pass.

~ VP Nerf.
Yeah, I would rather to not have it nerfed, but I don't like to overreact and underestimate things. It's not as terribad as majority of people think. Yes, we will need to manually dodge something on bosses more, I agree. No more pure facetanking - sure. On the other hand, with the real endgame gear, you don't need to care about dodging most of the bosses anyway, they just melt too fast (for example bosses without phased-fight like Kaoms die in like 2sec or so), so not instaleeching becomes not so "must-have" thing imho. I was able to stand in place and ignore the damage of Uber Atziri Trio in Harbinger, simply because of the damage output. Now we will need to move a bit due to leech delay and some dps loss, and I find it not a really bad thing, it will become less trivial stuff and gives us actually some more fun and ~maybe~ a challenge sometimes. Firstly, this particular build is not intended for ubernoobs and idiots who cannot move or press several keys instead of one or two, therefore players with some skill and heads on their shoulders shouldn't really have any problems manually dodging stuff or moving their character in time to avoid incoming shit (thanks to nice movespeed we got, it's not really that hard).

~ Vinktars.
Yep, knowing that reflect is barely existant now, the Vinktars uber-usefullness (does such word even exist?) is a bit smaller. Yet, eventhough we should be able to reach the leech cap, to totally ignore the fact that we can miss some projectiles (we ain't using Lycosidae), and ~maybe~ not leeching off every projectile, extra safety doesn't hurt in any way. Also, since we scale mostly lightning damage, either penetration (2nd, a.k.a budget choice) or added flat light boosts our dps quite marginally, so it's double benefit. It is still one of the strongest flasks ingame, and I would still name it #1 survivability flask. Even after two nerfs in the past, it's still too good to pass in my opinion, especially as of 60% (?) lightning build.


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Sorry, if I did some grammar mistakes or typed something misunderstandably. Another wall of text from me lol. Was posting the whole thing being quite drunk :)

-> VP-Nerf / OT:

I haven't meant it as the criticism of the VP-nerf. Even though I completely agree with you on the topic and don't like the VP-nerf (high-investment high-reward playstyle should exist outside of necro supp+HH) I have to admit this being a close call and GGG almost "having" to do this. A lot of people ranging from "I killed IZaro with mah Jugg and played Ngamahu till 85, I know everything about the game now" to knowledgeable experts and streamers have been requesting it and GGG at least removed some other cheesing mechanics with it (blade flurry-ruthless-cheese, flame golem cheese).

But..knowing the history, that's unlikely to be the last nerf of the build and that's where the things get dangerous..The decisions are heavily influenced by the people on reddit + HC/HCSSF streamers (with excellent general game knowledge but..interesting opinions when it comes to SC buids and balancing). Not even talking about ("we should go back to pulling the white mobs") reddit.

After NOT doing anything for ES or other - previously strong but now dumpstered - builds, we're getting close to a point where a single patch (3.2) could destroy the whole right-side /former VP - cluster. If that happens, we're left with summoners+tanks from what once was a rich build diversity.

The current VP is OK for this build because of its incredible AoEdamage /eventually good single target. If they don't mess around with KB/barrage too much, things are looking fine and the build is "only" T1 instead of T0. But if they decide to bring the dmg ceiling to levels of let's say..sunder..

Anyway, sry for OT:

-> leaving out a jade flask: Yeah that's an interesting alternative. It's likely the best choice in a party with a necro (high lvl grace). Solo it has is pros (very good defense) and cons (loss of MS). Swapping Jade for Stibnite (+seething flask,diamond,quicksilver,dying sun) is close to a balanced setup with the possibility to go offensive (vinktars/jade for stibnite or even HP) or defensive (QS for jade/vinktars). The body armours (QotF, Yriel's, Belly) look quite similar in strength as well. Lot's of choices.


Endgame Bosses: I agree on this - with very good/ single-target-focused gear things should be ok. As long as we don't get different boss mechanics at least). I'm actually more concerned about the random "a mob hits me with huge dmgspike for no reason" situations. The gear buildup for endgame bosses may become even longer compared to 3.0 - we'll see. Maybe the build isn't going to be as meta as last patch, who knows.

Vinktars: Yeah, the added flat is obv. very strong on this build. The leech can be nice, if we occasionally miss/get stunned. Not very concerned about accuracy, some useful gear already has accuracy on it (piscator's, yriel's) - and even without both I could get around 1k on gear (or 93% hit chance or so). Not sure if elevating Lyco to T1-T2 rarity is a good decision though, we'll see.

Yo! you two take a room lol! :3

@juerk
So to clearify you don't use an evasion shield, you don't use stibnite.
That make's it sort of obviouse that you rely more on leech than i do.

I played for a short time without vaal pact, i was totally fine until i wanted to run some map's with beyond and minus. max etc.

Since Reflect will be redone, i see clearly no issue.

I sure did the math wrong, but i will leech something around 2.400ish Life per second.

That should be way more than enough, as thank's to my defensive setup, i pretty much never get hit more than once recently.

And if a Situation like this occur's, well then we have to relearn boss fight's, actually might even fight the Boss and it's mechanics, looking forward to that :)

@andrew8448

Really nice items! :)

@Dracule
Exactly! GGG can nerf whatever they want, just leave the players option's or ways to work around it :)

@d3s0
Well the Build recieved pretty much more than one nerf per update in the past.
There is not really much left, if they continue like that.
But that's something i saw coming and since i really love the build, i went the safe way and started to extremly overgear the build (without making it a dps-warrior)

The only way to go :)

@juerk

Lyco rarity nerf (or buff, whatever it can be called) will affect only those who are not willing to actually maximise wander's defensive potential, since as I have noticed, like 9 out of 10 wander builds recently are ignoring the defenses moreless. And that is why I loved what Toma did and chose my way to go with this particular variation of wander. Investment into survivability isn't that huge but it pays off really. No Lyco + accuracy on gear opens up a whole item slot for 1k+ evasion, 100ish life and ton of resists/aspeed/movespeed, even accuracy roll aswell. I would rather have VP not nerfed myself aswell, but the game needs to change, I totally agree that VP was too powerful node for a reaaaaaaly long time.
And yeah, I was quite surprised that ES will get something in this patch, since they overnerfed it quite a bit, maybe 3.2 will bring back some power to them. Until then - life meta continues.

@Toma

Yup, that's true. My wanding days started in open beta when I fell in love with PS. Later they nerfed auras and build was doomed.
Then, later LL possibilities opened and hybrid wander was even stronger than dominating LL ST. Before they nerfed LL to the ground along with other stuff.
Now, we got our current wanders which suffer from nerfs one after another, and they will, till the build becomes unplayable. But then again, we will find a way to wand, that's for sure. I love how VP nerf doesn't nuke the build due to already built-in defensive mechanisms to counter the shit game throws at you. Also loving how huge part of the community is raging because of no-more-cheesy-ez-gameplay, because the personal skill is too low and PoE became a harder game (tbh, it was ment to be with some difficulty level in the first place).

So yeah, till the next nerf we got 4 more months of fun, starting tomorrow :D




Total offtopic:

(∩^ᗜ ^)⊃━ - - -☆ﾟ.*

Took it from the thread's name. Is this a guy shooting barrage? :D

my little sexies

oh ya and this

Hey,

Will play this build as my league starter to abyss, but since im not to much into pob yet since its my second league i want to ask, if you will upload a new passive tree till the new league begins tommorow at 9pm cet.

Thanks in advance

CaptainFalcone

probably going to start with this windripper pathfinder