Elemental Penetration.

"

Head_Less wrote:

don t forget that even if you nerf the shit out of pen gems, Elemental equilibrium would still be a problem.

Just change EE to a "curse" like ED is considerate as "poison" and problem solved.

The pvp formulas right now don't make sense anymore, you can achieve 75%+ pene with ease so there is no point having elemental damage do more damage than physical.

I like Kalh formula idea of diminish return based on consecutive hits, something about crit could be incorporated as well (don't tell me about crit beeing hard countered by brass dome, I tried and it's shit. Armor does nothing against elemental damages).

"

IceDeal wrote:

"

Head_Less wrote:

don t forget that even if you nerf the shit out of pen gems, Elemental equilibrium would still be a problem.

Just change EE to a "curse" like ED is considerate as "poison" and problem solved.

The pvp formulas right now don't make sense anymore, you can achieve 75%+ pene with ease so there is no point having elemental damage do more damage than physical.

I like Kalh formula idea of diminish return based on consecutive hits, something about crit could be incorporated as well (don't tell me about crit beeing hard countered by brass dome, I tried and it's shit. Armor does nothing against elemental damages).

brass dome is useless unless you stack 60+ dodge somehow. brass does slightly better than leg kaoms against crit builds. of course this is not enough. mulla came with brass and 8k life, he was getting one shots from barrage volleys.

Brass Dome being ineffective based on your feedback shows that not crit is the problem. I also support reworking the pvp formula, which is a very hard part to balance. The suggested modification would work for many skills, but some of them would remain totally unaffected (Bear trap, Flameblast) or slightly affected, and as rup mentioned it would only limit pvp builds even more.

The problem with penetration is it's availability of it and it's counters among builds:

Sources:

• Support gem 37-39% for only one element, for any skill
• Boots enchant 8-10% for all elements, for any skill, countered by micro
• Vessel of Vinktar 10-15% for only lightning, for any skill
• Passives 5-14%:
  • Forces of nature 6% all elements, for only attack skills
  • Arcing blows, Fangs of frost, Lava lash 8% for each element, for only attack skills
  • Minor nodes at templar and witch 2% for all elements, 3% for one element, for any skill
• Ascendencies, 10-25%:
  • Elementalist 25%, conditional, for any skill, sustain for one element is easy, for all elements it's rather hard
  • Hierophant 20% for all elements, for any skill, with major support gem limitation
  • Pathfinder 10% for all elements, for any skill, unconditional
  • Saboteur 10% for all elements, for any skill (class is strongly trap&mine only however), unconditional
  • Few other classes 5-10% for one/all elements, for any skill, but lower class efficiency
• Sambar sceptre 6-12% for all elements, for any skill but mostly casters
• Agnerod staff 20% for lightning only, for any skill but mostly casters

The only counter for penetration are Talismans, which can reduce the effectiveness by 50-100%, but only for sources of one element, and it's aviability is highly limited, and their overall benefits vary a lot (other rolls on them).

Summing up all the above, and keeping in mind that penetration is one of the highest damage multpliers available compared to their investment costs, stacking it or lacking it (getting countered) creates a huge contrast between players, and pushes the meta towards builds that stack the most, and gets countered by talismans the least (pen of one element can be nullified, while of all elements cannot be countered at all).

Talismans are a topic I don't really see brought up these days, but they are in game, and they create a lot of dividedness, because of their huge effect and being legacy. A personal story of mine happened before ascendency, pre-nerf spark times, when I also played it, and spark was capable of taking down almost anyone, especially those who couldn't offscreen, a guy comes in a duel and beats me with a stick in melee range, later turned out he having only 5k life iirc, and having a sick ass talisman, details about it not provided on purpose, but that item is worthy of the HLD porn thread's #1.

Conclusion: GGG provided too many sources of penetration and a too limited source of hard counter for them unequally among builds and player budgets, without even keeping PvP in mind.

I have all talismans combinaisons in both life and ES version. It does help a bit but without a massive Health pool (life or ES) it's pretty useless. Sur you may be able to tank 1 more hit but is that really a solution if you die right after ?

Let's face it, we predicted it and it happen. Damage went trough the roof with ascendancy. Anyone with half a brain can play or copy past + RMT (everyones know who you are by the way) a build who do shit tons of damages wich obviously piss of a lot of players who "spent" a lot of time and currency to achieve similar results (when I feel down, I go to Axn former shop and laught at all those useless items).

Formula as to be rework with diminush return so grinding sick gear still give you an advantage over other players but not as insane at what it used to be.

"

Rupenus wrote:

"

IceDeal wrote:

"

Head_Less wrote:

don t forget that even if you nerf the shit out of pen gems, Elemental equilibrium would still be a problem.

Just change EE to a "curse" like ED is considerate as "poison" and problem solved.

The pvp formulas right now don't make sense anymore, you can achieve 75%+ pene with ease so there is no point having elemental damage do more damage than physical.

I like Kalh formula idea of diminish return based on consecutive hits, something about crit could be incorporated as well (don't tell me about crit beeing hard countered by brass dome, I tried and it's shit. Armor does nothing against elemental damages).

brass dome is useless unless you stack 60+ dodge somehow. brass does slightly better than leg kaoms against crit builds. of course this is not enough. mulla came with brass and 8k life, he was getting one shots from barrage volleys.

Tried brass vs glass trappers in CTF, they couldn't 1 shot me anymore (Nor did I hell, die to them once), and the anti trap method you taught me, worked wonders.

Another good example is brass vs Jorg (flame pizza glassy LW guy), typically 1.3 hits can K.o me, however with brass, it takes 3.7 hits, it's cray cray, at 5k hp, with (my defensive mech).

Spoke with Qbot today, I don't think qbot gave me permission, nor specifically restricted me not to. But honestly I see great great potential with Brass dome, as you can stack "Reckless defense" (because making any hit crit you & Deal no extra damage) Jewels + avengers flask's, for MORE flask charges than path finders.

in an blockable / dodgeble right, this little guy "Should" replace quicksilver flasks, in head on fights, and with brass, + avengers, it can be on 24/7.

"

Márkusz wrote:

Brass Dome being ineffective based on your feedback shows that not crit is the problem. I also support reworking the pvp formula, which is a very hard part to balance. The suggested modification would work for many skills, but some of them would remain totally unaffected (Bear trap, Flameblast) or slightly affected, and as rup mentioned it would only limit pvp builds even more.

The problem with penetration is it's availability of it and it's counters among builds:

Sources:

• Support gem 37-39% for only one element, for any skill
• Boots enchant 8-10% for all elements, for any skill, countered by micro
• Vessel of Vinktar 10-15% for only lightning, for any skill
• Passives 5-14%:
  • Forces of nature 6% all elements, for only attack skills
  • Arcing blows, Fangs of frost, Lava lash 8% for each element, for only attack skills
  • Minor nodes at templar and witch 2% for all elements, 3% for one element, for any skill
• Ascendencies, 10-25%:
  • Elementalist 25%, conditional, for any skill, sustain for one element is easy, for all elements it's rather hard
  • Hierophant 20% for all elements, for any skill, with major support gem limitation
  • Pathfinder 10% for all elements, for any skill, unconditional
  • Saboteur 10% for all elements, for any skill (class is strongly trap&mine only however), unconditional
  • Few other classes 5-10% for one/all elements, for any skill, but lower class efficiency
• Sambar sceptre 6-12% for all elements, for any skill but mostly casters
• Agnerod staff 20% for lightning only, for any skill but mostly casters

The only counter for penetration are Talismans, which can reduce the effectiveness by 50-100%, but only for sources of one element, and it's aviability is highly limited, and their overall benefits vary a lot (other rolls on them).

Summing up all the above, and keeping in mind that penetration is one of the highest damage multpliers available compared to their investment costs, stacking it or lacking it (getting countered) creates a huge contrast between players, and pushes the meta towards builds that stack the most, and gets countered by talismans the least (pen of one element can be nullified, while of all elements cannot be countered at all).

Talismans are a topic I don't really see brought up these days, but they are in game, and they create a lot of dividedness, because of their huge effect and being legacy. A personal story of mine happened before ascendency, pre-nerf spark times, when I also played it, and spark was capable of taking down almost anyone, especially those who couldn't offscreen, a guy comes in a duel and beats me with a stick in melee range, later turned out he having only 5k life iirc, and having a sick ass talisman, details about it not provided on purpose, but that item is worthy of the HLD porn thread's #1.

Conclusion: GGG provided too many sources of penetration and a too limited source of hard counter for them unequally among builds and player budgets, without even keeping PvP in mind.

^deep deep rabbit hole, hard to discuss, there's a problem with the pvp formula yeah, but I still see the biggest error of PoE, is the Resistance calculation's, As in, every person under the sun is resistance capped at 75% and getting higher max res, is difficult / requires stupid aura's.

TL:DR ideally resistances should never hard cap out, as in, 300 fire res should give you about 80% max fire res, in comparison to League of legend armor / resistance system, albeit similar to d3's resistances system, as in higher your res, the bigger the diminishing returns. (this overhaul wont ever happen though)

Every skill is scaled to do only 25% of the 75% res, however there's a distinctive lack of elemental damage reduction, the endurance charge extra flat %res is a outdated joke.

That said, I still do think that, a flat % reduction of elemental pen in pvp scenario is a more "Fair" system as in, characters who invest hugely on pen can still do so, however not every mofo with a vinktar+ boots enchant can, this 1 shot meta has gotta stop/ atleast slow down abit. If players do abandon "ele pen" all in total, it's much more defend-able.

As far as I know, this whole MoM moment is solely driven by thee lack of elemental damage reduction.

"

1Tokimeki2003 wrote:

That said, I still do think that, a flat % reduction of elemental pen in pvp scenario is a more "Fair" system as in, characters who invest hugely on pen can still do so, however not every mofo with a vinktar+ boots enchant can, this 1 shot meta has gotta stop/ atleast slow down abit. If players do abandon "ele pen" all in total, it's much more defend-able.

Hard to take you seriously about "every mofo with a vinktar+ boots enchant" when the core EA items are quill rain + any walls. You are just salty that some player manage to get trough your EA tank when you use such an overpowered skill with extremely strong item synergy that it allow you to massively invest in defense while keeping strong damages and abusing the secondary damage effect. Now mix that with pathfinder + zerphy + Dying Sun...

Also I experimented a lot with Brass Dome in PvE (on a legacy aegis / Legacy Anvil with +4% block corruption / 5x Reckless defenses / Avenger mod on every flasks) but popped out a few time in PvP to see how it worked there. Spoiler : It didn't work great even with Avenger flasks..
First, permanent max block is impossible to reach.
Second, Elemental penetration will eat you for breakfast.
Third, you are very weak to either extremely fast hit spell like Barrage or Slow powerful ones like Flameblast. Brass dome shine in mid speed attacks but who is using that ?
Fourth, any Elemental Overload build will nullify the armor effect entirely.

Maybe with a broken skill like EA you can still keep strong damages but any other builds will sacrifice way too much in order to fully maximize this armor potential resulting at best in a troll tank build.
i'd like to be proven wrong but for me in the actual meta it;s just a PvE armor, an extremely strong one though (I can afk full charge Uber Izaro with Sword without trouble).

"

IceDeal wrote:

"

1Tokimeki2003 wrote:

That said, I still do think that, a flat % reduction of elemental pen in pvp scenario is a more "Fair" system as in, characters who invest hugely on pen can still do so, however not every mofo with a vinktar+ boots enchant can, this 1 shot meta has gotta stop/ atleast slow down abit. If players do abandon "ele pen" all in total, it's much more defend-able.

Hard to take you seriously about "every mofo with a vinktar+ boots enchant" when the core EA items are quill rain + any walls. You are just salty that some player manage to get trough your EA tank when you use such an overpowered skill with extremely strong item synergy that it allow you to massively invest in defense while keeping strong damages and abusing the secondary damage effect. Now mix that with pathfinder + zerphy + Dying Sun...

Holy shit, that's the exact same shit I was thinking lol

"I HATE THIS ONE-SHOT THING GOING ON IN PVP" as he wall/ground-spams EA all over the fucking place and one-shotting everyone with EA.

I'd be like me complaining about anti-freeze flasks not working.

"

IceDeal wrote:

"

1Tokimeki2003 wrote:

That said, I still do think that, a flat % reduction of elemental pen in pvp scenario is a more "Fair" system as in, characters who invest hugely on pen can still do so, however not every mofo with a vinktar+ boots enchant can, this 1 shot meta has gotta stop/ atleast slow down abit. If players do abandon "ele pen" all in total, it's much more defend-able.

Hard to take you seriously about "every mofo with a vinktar+ boots enchant" when the core EA items are quill rain + any walls. You are just salty that some player manage to get trough your EA tank when you use such an overpowered skill with extremely strong item synergy that it allow you to massively invest in defense while keeping strong damages and abusing the secondary damage effect. Now mix that with pathfinder + zerphy + Dying Sun...

Also I experimented a lot with Brass Dome in PvE (on a legacy aegis / Legacy Anvil with +4% block corruption / 5x Reckless defenses / Avenger mod on every flasks) but popped out a few time in PvP to see how it worked there. Spoiler : It didn't work great even with Avenger flasks..
First, permanent max block is impossible to reach.
Second, Elemental penetration will eat you for breakfast.
Third, you are very weak to either extremely fast hit spell like Barrage or Slow powerful ones like Flameblast. Brass dome shine in mid speed attacks but who is using that ?
Fourth, any Elemental Overload build will nullify the armor effect entirely.

Maybe with a broken skill like EA you can still keep strong damages but any other builds will sacrifice way too much in order to fully maximize this armor potential resulting at best in a troll tank build.
i'd like to be proven wrong but for me in the actual meta it;s just a PvE armor, an extremely strong one though (I can afk full charge Uber Izaro with Sword without trouble).

Amen to those comments about EA. Only jewels as damage. 10k life and outdamaging glass cannon caster builds. Makes no fkin sense. EA's been broken for so long, it's just sad at this point.

Brass Dome is good on a melee character. Depends on the match up but most often then not its a good trade for any chest if you can ignore crit multiplier. As far as me having 8k life, nearly 40k armor, Fortify and full melee damage still using the chest. Me dying in 1 Barrage burst while it takes me 4++++ hits to kill the ES crit bow user....well not much to really say. First we can conclude that armor is absofuckinglutely dog shit. Barrage broken perhaps, or is it just the ever obvious ongoing debate of why do bows even have 500+ x-x weapons that can do as much damage as a 800dps 2h melee weapon in RT form...but from ranged. Rupenus's base damage output is as high as mine...before he crits. Tool tip x-x is ridiculous, then you multiply that by his crit multi (which I ignored 100% with Brass Dome but was still 1 shot at 8k life). This is just more of the same old shit we've always been dealt. Wouldn't matter if I was using Kaoms, then you're facing the multiplier and you're 1 shot yet again.

I'm all for applying 50% to penetration. As well as 50% to every other form of immunity.

50% bleed effect on bleed immune, 50% poison on poison immune, shock/ignite/whatever.

PvP needs to be scaled/balanced around some set effectiveness, but it has to be entirely global instead of just one skill at a time. T values are a start, but they need to be matched across the board somehow.

I'm not mathematically inclined enough, nor am I a developer, but I think such a thing is spreadsheetable.