[2.6] SignalShot™ CI Full Ele Conversion TS/Barrage / Shaper & Uber Deathless / with video!

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Rupenus wrote:

oh yeah, i didnt know this, good read.

i was wondering why increased damage on rings are so bad for conversion builds.

I decided to actually investigate the calculations involved in gaining extra elemental damage, because I couldn't find a concrete outline as to how they are done. The wiki doesn't address this either. From my brief testing, it seems that even when gaining elemental damage from physical damage, the physical damage is not, in fact, increased first.

Here's what I did: I went over to a character with reset passives, and got enough passives to equip items. I equipped a bow with 246 max phys damage. I also obtained +20% elemental damage and +19% physical damage as the ONLY increased damage modifiers, and slotted a level 5 hatred which adds cold damage equal to 28% of physical damage.

Now, if the increased physical damage applies *before* the 28% gain, then we should see the following outcome:

246 physical damage is boosted to 293 physical damage (via the 19% physical damage increase)

82 cold damage is gained (28% of 293)

The 82 cold damage is boosted by 20% increased elemental damage for a final outcome of 98 cold damage.

The overall calculation looks like this:

246 x 1.19 x 0.28 x 1.20 = 98.36 = 98 rounded to the nearest integer


However, this is NOT what the in-game tooltip shows. Instead, it shows a maximum cold damage of 96 cold damage, not 98. This value of 96 can be generated if we end up adding, and not multiplying the two damage increases, the way we do when calculating total damage for elemental conversion (which I outlined in my previous post).

It seems then that the damage might be calculated this way:

246 physical damage is first multiplied by 0.28 from Hatred, generating 69 cold damage

The resulting 69 cold damage is multiplied by 1.39, which is obtained by adding the physical and elemental damage increases, for a final outcome of 96 cold damage.

The overall calculation looks like this:

246 x 0.28 x (1 + 0.19 + 0.20) = 95.74 = 96 rounded to the nearest integer

If this is the way the calculations are done, that would mean that the increases in physical and elemental damage are once again additive when calculating the elemental damage gained from physical damage. More importantly, increasing physical damage would not be critical in getting the most out of gaining elemental damage from Hatred, Herald of Ash, Signal Fire, Hysteria Rings, or Taste of Hate - the only thing that would matter in those instances is the *base* damage of the weapon. Of course the increases in physical damage would still have value, but not any more than increases in elemental damage.

Can anyone else shed some light on this?

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DicemanX wrote:

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Rupenus wrote:

oh yeah, i didnt know this, good read.

i was wondering why increased damage on rings are so bad for conversion builds.

I decided to actually investigate the calculations involved in gaining extra elemental damage, because I couldn't find a concrete outline as to how they are done. The wiki doesn't address this either. From my brief testing, it seems that even when gaining elemental damage from physical damage, the physical damage is not, in fact, increased first.

The overall calculation looks like this:

246 x 0.28 x (1 + 0.19 + 0.20) = 95.74 = 96 rounded to the nearest integer

If this is the way the calculations are done, that would mean that the increases in physical and elemental damage are once again additive when calculating the elemental damage gained from physical damage. More importantly, increasing physical damage would not be critical in getting the most out of gaining elemental damage from Hatred, Herald of Ash, Signal Fire, Hysteria Rings, or Taste of Hate - the only thing that would matter in those instances is the *base* damage of the weapon. Of course the increases in physical damage would still have value, but not any more than increases in elemental damage.

Can anyone else shed some light on this?

Thanks for investigating this. I've never actually used hatred on any of my main builds but your calculations seem correct. Otherwise how would you handle other sources of increased damage such as projectile or attack damage? It would need to be additive.

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More importantly, increasing physical damage would not be critical in getting the most out of gaining elemental damage from Hatred, Herald of Ash, Signal Fire, Hysteria Rings, or Taste of Hate.

With regards to flat phys vs flat light vs WED.
The interaction between PPAD + conversion tools + WED/ele focus should favor physical damage increases and as a result increase the gains from flat physical damage right?

In your current build, build doesn't 20% increased physical damage give more dps than 20% increased weapon elemental damage?

Awesome read. . . thanks a bunch for the reply on +damage% calculations

This community has really come a long way

It's almost like the game has been given wings recently

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Nephalim wrote:

With regards to flat phys vs flat light vs WED.
The interaction between PPAD + conversion tools + WED/ele focus should favor physical damage increases and as a result increase the gains from flat physical damage right?

In your current build, build doesn't 20% increased physical damage give more dps than 20% increased weapon elemental damage?

OK ran some more tests. I prepared two belts, one with +19% physical damage and one with +19%WED, and switched between the two of them to see if they would have different impacts on the tooltip damage numbers.

I first looked at the tooltip lightning damage on Barrage with no auras turned on. Comparing a +19% physical damage boost from one belt to a +19% WED increase on another belt, there was no difference in the min and max lightning damage values (I only looked at lightning damage, not fire damage, because the Signal Fire quiver has flat fire damage that confounds the issue, and I need to keep that quiver equipped to convert to 100% elemental damage).

I tested with and without the multiplier gems such as PPAD, WED, Slower Projectiles, and none of those gems affected the final outcome - the boosts to lightning damage from +19% physical damage and +19% elemental damage were always identical.

Then I switched on Hatred and looked at cold damage, to see if the boosts had a different effect on the damage gained from physical damage, and whether PPAD made any difference. Once again, there was absolutely no difference between the minimum and maximum cold damage displayed on the tooltip when I equipped the +19% WED and +19% physical damage belts, regadless of whether the PPAD gem was present or absent in the links.

I can thus conclusively say at this point that elemental conversion, gaining elemental damage from physical damage, and the PPAD gem have no impact whatsoever on whether increased physical damage or increased elemental damage is better, provided that the physical damage is 100% converted to elemental damage and there are no flat elemental damage increases. This is fully consistent with the earlier calculations showing how physical and elemental damage increases are additive.


On a completely separate note, I finally got around to completing Perandus Manor on the Atlas, my first ever:



Yay!

can someone give a guide about the tree before going CI cause i have the currency to make endgame build really good just dont know the health leveling tree before CI

hey guys can any one help with a general leveling pattern for the tree beofre going CI. sorry for the noob question i am hopeless with trees, like i have the currency for the OP build but never have been good at leveling the tree without help, just need ideas for the tree until i go CI

I want to thank the author for the excellent build. That's what I got to 95 level:

Thanks for the write-up!

I'll have to take the build all the way to end-game next league, ending up switching over to FB raider for the remainder.

I have an extra uncorrupted Signal Fire if anyone was looking to try their luck, pls. PM:

Question:

I'm playing SSF and have finally got the quiver and Opus + some decent ES gear (including 6L regalia) and I want to try this build.

Thing is; I don't have access to a Vinktars and probably won't for a while seeing as I only have 2 of the staffs.

Can the build be played reliably without the leech from a Vinktars?

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Qwaza wrote:

Question:

I'm playing SSF and have finally got the quiver and Opus + some decent ES gear (including 6L regalia) and I want to try this build.

Thing is; I don't have access to a Vinktars and probably won't for a while seeing as I only have 2 of the staffs.

Can the build be played reliably without the leech from a Vinktars?

without flaks up I normally die instantly so I would say that it would be very difficult to play. possible, sure, but would it be worth it? in my experience, no