[2.6] SignalShot™ CI Full Ele Conversion TS/Barrage / Shaper & Uber Deathless / with video!

Is 400+ pdps / 400 dps Harbinger BIS for legacy?

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phocas99 wrote:

Is 400+ pdps / 400 dps Harbinger BIS for legacy?

I was wondering the same. Death's Opus only have 200 PDPS so it doesn't feel good for +2 projectiles. I'm not 100% sure how damage calculation works from A to Z but a 400pdps seems better for 2 reasons :
- LA won't benefit (if not at all) from the +2 projectiles (you could swap LMP with another damage gem but still feels meh)
- Worst case scenario on maths (200pdps +2 projectiles) will have 25% less damage output than a 400pdps bow. And I really doubt it's the case, because of "more" modifiers

I might be wrong so if someone could confirm/correct me that'll be great. Let's say we only work with local pdps first and we have no other modifiers.
Barrage fires 4 projectiles (1 base + 3 from skill). Death's Opus will push it to 6 projectiles. Let's forget modifiers a bit :
Death's Opus : 200pdps * 6 = 1200 dps
Harby 400 pdps : 400pdps * 4 = 1600 dps

Now, if we account all other sources of +x projectiles (aka quiver (1), helmet enchant (2), Dying Sun(2)) we have 9 projectiles, 11 with Death's Opus.
Death's Opus : 200*11 = 2200 dps
Harby : 400 * 9 = 3600

We now have a 63% difference instead of 25%. If you throw back modifiers ("more" which is multiplicative) it becomes more and more.

In fact, at first without modifiers a 300pdps bow would compete with Death's Opus.

So I don't see any reason to stick with a Death's Opus.

Also, a side note on the comparison done on page 167, the tooltip only shows a difference of 8000 damage between RotC & DO for crit reasons. But that 8000 damage is actually insane simply because of things that aren't calculated on the tooltip such :
-10% extra damage from a random element (Pathfinder ascendancy) which then scales with weapon elemental damage
-% of elemental resistance which is ignored (10% from ascendancy)
-..

Edit: Btw, Attack Speed should be in favor of Death's Opus since it'll allow more projectiles per second than a non Death's Opus bow but it shouldn't compete at all with a 400pdps bow

And what about "Slivertongue Harbinger Bow"? Someone tried it?

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TraneMAK wrote:

And what about "Slivertongue Harbinger Bow"? Someone tried it?

Yes, I've tried it and it is far inferior to Death's Opus, Reach, or a 350+dps Harbinger.

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Shattoww wrote:

Really? Phys Proj Dmg over Faster Attacks? Why does OP have Faster Attacks listed?

Faster Attacks > PPAD if you have a high damage bow on TS/LA, it feels much better

Currently making this build. I'm trying to use a non-legacy vessel vintkar without the leechs nodes. For mapping, its working well but for some bosses (some rare or unique), sometimes i'm struggeling because my vessel of vintkar is not reloaded -> mana and survivability issues... Also I'm 7k ES... Any suggestion, maybe its a question of strategy or playstyle? How do you get leach if you don't have any more charges in yr flask? How can you reload it if there is not any mob around?

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ploxirion wrote:

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phocas99 wrote:

Is 400+ pdps / 400 dps Harbinger BIS for legacy?

I was wondering the same. Death's Opus only have 200 PDPS so it doesn't feel good for +2 projectiles. I'm not 100% sure how damage calculation works from A to Z but a 400pdps seems better for 2 reasons :
- LA won't benefit (if not at all) from the +2 projectiles (you could swap LMP with another damage gem but still feels meh)
- Worst case scenario on maths (200pdps +2 projectiles) will have 25% less damage output than a 400pdps bow. And I really doubt it's the case, because of "more" modifiers

I might be wrong so if someone could confirm/correct me that'll be great.

It is actually difficult to establish at which point a Harbinger eclipses an Opus, but there's no doubt that once a player can afford a 400pdps Harbinger it will be significantly stronger than an Opus.

What confounds the calculations is that all multipliers go into diminishing returns. For instance, when it comes to Barrage damage, an Opus with 6 arrows will have its Barrage damage multiplied by 1.5 relative to a Harbinger (6 arrows vs 4 arrows), but that multiplier gets reduced to only 1.2 when we factor in a +3 arrow Dying Sun, +2 Barrage helm, and +1 quiver (12 arrows vs 10 arrows). Similarly a +150% to the crit multiplier has a much bigger impact on damage when crit multi is at 250% (resulting in a x1.6 difference in damage), than when crit multi is at 450% (resulting in a x1.33 difference in damage).

If we assume, for instance, that the player in early league has no sources of extra arrows and has around 300% crit multi, then a 200pdps Opus is about equivalent to a 450pdps Harbinger because we can multiply the Opus damage by 1.5 relative to the Harbinger due to the difference in arrows and by 1.5 due to the difference in crit multi (200x1.5x1.5=450). However this assumes that the crit chance is at max for both bows, but in reality the difference in crit multipliers won't lead to as big of a difference in dps so the Opus is more equivalent to a Harb around 400dps, not 450dps. Yes, it seems almost unbelievable that a 200pdps bow can rival a 400pdps bow, but that's just how multipliers work - they can scale the damage in pretty absurd ways.

Regardless, I think the general rule of thumb is that when starting out in a new league, an Opus is comparable to around a 350pdps Harbinger, but it becomes progressively inferior as the player builds attack speed, the crit multiplier, and the number of arrows. *However*, an Opus utterly decimates content up to T15 anyways once you reach high levels and are tricked out with gear, flasks, jewels etc, so I wouldn't advise upgrading to a Harb unless it is significantly higher pdps (a cut off of around 400pdps is good I think) and once the player wants to farm Guardians/Shaper comfortably.

In other words a player starting the build early in the league should get an Opus, work on upgrading everything else (jewels and flasks particularly) and once the player is strong enough to crush T15s the player should start shopping for a 400pdps Harbinger. Farming Uber lab can speed that up, since SignalShot is a fantastic uber farmer.

Does Atziri's Promise not work with this or is it just not enough leech?

Hm, what im doing wrong? i have a not bad equip, but my damage is 10k with Barrage slower projectives, and 12k with Tornado super multi proj.
Plz see my character (BatyaNaZadanii)

we can't see your characters @TraneMak

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LastxResort wrote:

Does Atziri's Promise not work with this or is it just not enough leech?

Atziri's Promise is a good dps flask, but it doesn't benefit from penetration. Taste of Hate is much better, since it gives you almost the same dps boost, and a non-legacy prevents around 16% physical damage and 16% cold damage (assuming you're already capped for ice resist).