Essence Metamod Crafting

Thanks for the reply. Regarding the chance of getting what you want being nowhere near 1% or 1/100: I also think we have to take into account tiers of rolls beyond rolls themselves. There is a great chance of getting life / defense % increase / resists on a chest but a much, much smaller chance of getting those as t2+ rolls. Even the T5 essence guarantees a minimum of one t2+ roll with every iteration.

"

ghoulavenger wrote:

The advantage is actually having the guaranteed mod. The rest is negligible. The guaranteed mod makes crafting far more deterministic

Disagree. In the example ~20 chaos are just as good as one T1 essence. Essence spamming may have somewhat lower variance. But in no way is it "deterministic". Unless you dont care about the other mods.

"

ghoulavenger wrote:

I can spend over 200 alterations on an item and never see the prefix I want even once,

You can also spam 200 essences and never get a good roll.

"

ghoulavenger wrote:

intrinsically several orders stronger than a chaos orb -- even if the chaos orb has access to the same tiers of mods.

IMO this is clearly misleading. There is a "fair ratio" of chaos : essence. Like 20 chaos are as good as one T1 essence when "spam crafting" a Vaal Regalia. Using fancy words aka "intrinsically several orders stronger" does not change that.

"

Rysidion wrote:

Thanks for the reply. Regarding the chance of getting what you want being nowhere near 1% or 1/100: I also think we have to take into account tiers of rolls beyond rolls themselves. There is a great chance of getting life / defense % increase / resists on a chest but a much, much smaller chance of getting those as t2+ rolls. Even the T5 essence guarantees a minimum of one t2+ roll with every iteration.

I did take the tiers into account. I assumed you want a T1 ES roll. My ~22 chaos == 1 T1 essence guess was based on that assumption. You can see the chances in the link. With some math skills and the chaos algorithm knowledge you could exactly calculate it.

Edit: Changed ratio from 25 to 20.

"

Zrevnur wrote:

"

ghoulavenger wrote:

The advantage is actually having the guaranteed mod. The rest is negligible. The guaranteed mod makes crafting far more deterministic

Disagree. In the example ~25 chaos are just as good as one T1 essence. Essence spamming may have somewhat lower variance. But in no way is it "deterministic". Unless you dont care about the other mods.

Generally you don't. You get the one good roll that you want and craft around that. Just because the metamod crafting will roll with the essence doesn't mean you can't use it to acquire just one mod specifically -- which I think many people intend to.

"

Zrevnur wrote:

"

ghoulavenger wrote:

I can spend over 200 alterations on an item and never see the prefix I want even once,

You can also spam 200 essences and never get a good roll.

Really, I was under the impression that the higher tiered essences provided a specific tier of mod. Sure you may need to divine it to get a perfect roll, but uh, I'm fairly certain you only need to use 1 essence.

"

Zrevnur wrote:

"

ghoulavenger wrote:

intrinsically several orders stronger than a chaos orb -- even if the chaos orb has access to the same tiers of mods.

IMO this is clearly misleading. There is a "fair ratio" of chaos : essence. Like 25 chaos are as good as one T1 essence when "spam crafting" a Vaal Regalia. Using fancy words aka "intrinsically several orders stronger" does not change that.

We're clearly talking about different things. If you're using the spam crafting methodology, chaos orbs are still significantly weaker, but do provide a significant amount of variance (two decent mods can be better than 1 t1 mod for example so the essences won't always provide better gear, even though they usually will). But why would you need to spam craft anything? I predict that people are going to use this with master crafting extensively, to build up on the one good mod, or more if they get them. By my guess, you'd only really need the guaranteed mod and then master craft the rest. That can still be used with the meta mods, even if the essences themselves will roll the meta mods off. (Order of operations is important). This is not a new idea so I'm not sure why you wouldn't consider it.

"

My_Lego wrote:

It would without a doubt have been a horrible case of the few that have the means and had spent time figuring out how this works getting a lot richer then the rest very quickly.

You don't seem to under the impact of this change - before, if you had essenced a nice item, you could mastermod and have a super nice item with merely an exalt as an extra charge. This was an RNG system, to be sure, but with enough determinism to make the league worthwhile- you get a nice essence and you most likely get a nice item.

Now, it's 100% RNG and having a nice essence means absolutely nada, thereby nullifing the entire league.

"

ghoulavenger wrote:

Generally you don't. You get the one good roll that you want and craft around that. Just because the metamod crafting will roll with the essence doesn't mean you can't use it to acquire just one mod specifically -- which I think many people intend to.

How do you deterministically aquire just one mod? They (essences) work like chaos which means they give you also other mods. Not just one. Unless these other mods are good (or compatible with meta mods) you have to reroll.
Lets look at Vaal Regalia crafting (body armour is the context that I responded to):
To be "viable" it needs a T1 ES roll and a T1 ES% roll. So if the essence rolls a guaranteed T1 ES roll and a T5 ES% roll then you have to reroll.

"

ghoulavenger wrote:

Really, I was under the impression that the higher tiered essences provided a specific tier of mod. Sure you may need to divine it to get a perfect roll, but uh, I'm fairly certain you only need to use 1 essence.

You are partially correct. But you ignore that the essence can give you trash mods which you cannot get rid of in any other way than rerolling. With "good roll" I meant the whole item. Not just the guaranteed affix.

"

ghoulavenger wrote:

But why would you need to spam craft anything? I predict that people are going to use this with master crafting extensively, to build up on the one good mod, or more if they get them. By my guess, you'd only really need the guaranteed mod and then master craft the rest.

I have the impression you do not understand how the essences supposedly will work. You cannot separate the guaranteed prefix that an essence gives from the random other prefixes it gives. You will be stuck with these random other prefixes unless you reroll. And even the suffixes cannot be removed if there are 3 of them.

"

CliveHowlitzer wrote:

Isn't this just one more situation where something doesn't apply 'just because' without any in-game explanation for those who don't check outside sources? I know that doesn't apply to most people but I am sure there are those who just play the game and would be in the dark regarding these sorts of situations since there is never anything in-game explaining that particular things don't work in certain situations even though they function normally in all others.

this.

These little exceptions and things that the game doesn't tell you always bugs me.

So what is even the point of the league now?

RIP essence league

"

Zrevnur wrote:

I have the impression you do not understand how the essences supposedly will work. You cannot separate the guaranteed prefix that an essence gives from the random other prefixes it gives. You will be stuck with these random other prefixes unless you reroll. And even the suffixes cannot be removed if there are 3 of them.

A chaos can add up to 3 prefixes and 3 suffixes. So not all rolls will be metacrafted. Most chaos orbs roll 4-5 mods. One of the mods will be the mod of the essence. You may get stuck with a junk prefix/suffix or you may not be able craft at all (if you're unlucky). So the essences aren't without risk. I didn't say they were. I just said you'd take that one good roll and craft around it. Does this apply to the vaal regalia? Well, depends on what you want I guess. Mastercrafting to finish items is more about getting what you need than it is out of getting OP items. If you think you need a 700+ ES vaal regalia, and don't get it out of an essence, well tough shit try again. I don't know the numbers of how often that shows up in a chaos, but I bet that it'll be cheaper to do it with essences, unless they drop really low tier only. Using your 1 to 25 chaos ratio, which it might be, I'm still suspecting a T7 essence to cost about 9 chaos. That would be a savings of 16 chaos. Course it might be more expensive depending on market rates and such (like if it is a desirable essence, etc).

"

ghoulavenger wrote:

"

Zrevnur wrote:

I have the impression you do not understand how the essences supposedly will work. You cannot separate the guaranteed prefix that an essence gives from the random other prefixes it gives. You will be stuck with these random other prefixes unless you reroll. And even the suffixes cannot be removed if there are 3 of them.

A chaos can add up to 3 prefixes and 3 suffixes. So not all rolls will be metacrafted. Most chaos orbs roll 4-5 mods. One of the mods will be the mod of the essence. You may get stuck with a junk prefix/suffix or you may not be able craft at all (if you're unlucky). So the essences aren't without risk. I didn't say they were. I just said you'd take that one good roll and craft around it. Does this apply to the vaal regalia? Well, depends on what you want I guess. Mastercrafting to finish items is more about getting what you need than it is out of getting OP items. If you think you need a 700+ ES vaal regalia, and don't get it out of an essence, well tough shit try again. I don't know the numbers of how often that shows up in a chaos, but I bet that it'll be cheaper to do it with essences, unless they drop really low tier only. Using your 1 to 25 chaos ratio, which it might be, I'm still suspecting a T7 essence to cost about 9 chaos. That would be a savings of 16 chaos. Course it might be more expensive depending on market rates and such (like if it is a desirable essence, etc).

Basically you agree with me now? The one and only potential advantage of the T1 essence in the example is a quantitative one. You can simply replace a stack of essences with a (larger) stack of chaos orbs. So regarding the T1 essence in the example the "make rares great again" essence league means: We now have more(*) chaos for "spam crafting" the Vaal Regalia.

(*) It could actually turn out to be less due to layout mechanics and/or it taking longer to kill essence packs than other packs. Far as I understand it requires multiple clicks to kill the essence pack. 1x-click offscreening everything doesnt work with them. But they have a fancy new name.

in this thread: people who would never be rich or smart enough to craft like this crying like they actually just lost something.





good change, that seemed too powerful, too much faffing around, not enough rng. I want crafting to be easier, but not like that.

We dony rly know how many high tier essences we will get, so I dont think its fair to say they will not result in some decent opportunity. Its not looking great tbh for crafting stuff, time will tell.

We dont need new mats like this to make crafting good honestly, crafting is already amazing, its just that the existing orbs which do everything you need to do dont drop nearly enough. Exalt drop rates in particular are completely farcical from a crafting point of view and basically destroy crafting for 99.9% of players.