Map drops - assessment of 2.0.0, and changes coming in 2.0.2

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Qarl wrote:

There is a serious bump of maps being run at level 73, more than at level 72, and then a solid dive at level 74. This is partially due to level 74 being where the harder mods kick in. The harder mods can be discouraging.

Don't forget the harder bosses. I'll bet if you take a look at the data on 74s being run you'll see a lot more waste pools being run than torture chambers, labyrinths, and jungle valleys. Mine maps will probably be somewhere in the middle due to evangelists on those twisting pathways.

You might consider swapping some 75s with 74s.

I quit playing PoE due to the map drop issue. I am excited that finally there is acknowledgment of the issue and that things are being considered to fix the problem. I will keep an eye on the changes and when 2.0.2 drops, will give it another chance. Thank you so much for listening to your players.

But I also want to stress that Zana is as much a part of the frustrations with mapping as the actual map drops. Where I am excited to see progress being made to fix the mapping problem, I am disapointed to see no mention of Zana. I would ask that you please consider putting Zana mission levels back to pre-2.0 levels. There was no reason to lower her map levels when she already has a MORE punishing XP curve to level her to 8. It was one of the very last straws that drove me away when I found out that, not only were the map drop rates terrible, but Zana had her mission levels reduced as well. I was looking forward to at least being able to run ONE level 76 map a day when I finally level Zana up to 8. When I heard that, it made the 2.0 mapping system change almost seem spiteful and completely removed any desire for me to level Zana any more.

What do you guys think about making map drops really easier but make all maps harder after 74+ wich is not really the case when i see Plateau / Arid Lake / Volcano / Precinct / Waterways / gorge / underground river etc ..

It would make the endgame really more interesting we would have to manage gears a bit more etc ... but with some rewards ( more map drops ).

This way no more problems with map drops and possibly resulting in a more interesting end game feel instead of the actual level 90 in two / three days.

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Dawmz wrote:

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Aim_Deep wrote:

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Dawmz wrote:

Well, it's the second time in the history of this game that you are clearly giving up your "vision" because of forum whining. Last time was ffa loot, it didn't turn out very badly ; I hope this time it won't either but I guess everyone will be sustaining 79 maps in a week; and jungle valley/torture chamber bosses will have their dmg divided by 4 or something.
The argument about the "dominant version of the game" is also very sad to hear ; GGG used to not care about what the majority wants, they did the game they wanted themselves ; not the game the masses in softcore want. Hope you won't lose your soul too much on this path.

So? If a player can run 82s whats the problem of him sustaining them? He worked hard to be able to do that content, let him. You think its cool to have players doing content too easy for them? I don't thats that why no other game does it. Like game making 101 steady progression to the next hardest level... doh? Like when you boot tetris and beat a 34 map they dont buck you back to 30. Naw you go to 35.

This is the only game in I've ever seen in my life that does that. Hence I think it has worst end game ever.

Wether I think maps should be sustainable at 82, 79, 75 or not at all is irrelevant : I'm not a game designer of Path of Exile.
What matters is that I have a profound respect for GGG because of one thing : they are one of the last game companies who usually doesn't compromise with their visions of the game because of whiny feedbacks and/or players satisfaction level. They do the game that they want, the game that they like, and if a lot of people are liking it also, it's nice, if not, it's not the end of the world, other games exist. And this is great. So many of the games I liked have been ruined because their designers listened to the players (and when I say players, I should say consumers instead) who want everything, everytime, immediately and without any efforts whatsoever.
So I'm always sad when GGG does give up on their design. They always intended to have maps not sustainable, or hardly sustainable, after a certain level. They had the guts to recognize that this design goal was a bit lost during 1.3 because of a lot of things (specifically because of the addition of boxes + exiles + beyond mobs + shrines + ...), and to fix it. Now players are not happy, and they will fold.
But maybe I'm wrong, and they'll just minor adjustements to improve a bit the players life while not giving up on the idea of hard to sustain end game, we'll see how it goes.

I appreciate that GGG is steadfast in their vision and don't cater overtly to the whining crowd and that the game remains complex, difficult and often punishing. I come back to this game after quitting at level 85 in open beta hoping for improved endgame. If you count atziri in this I suppose it has improved. Forsaken Masters are excellent, and the hideout mini-sims is astounding. But. But I can't abide several weeks of 1 step forward 2 or 3 steps backwards. My personal philosophy is if you maintain quantity in the triple didgits you should have very gradual climb to be poised to OCCAISIONALLY get 80+ maps and dig into true endgame lootz.

Part of the debate of streamer privalege is once you maintain a stock of valuable, moveable crafting bases that funds your ability to continue to A.) Roll dem maps and climb on up economically, B.) Afford to buy more maps. You're essentially left with the rich getting richer and being more enabled to touch the limit.

Tldr; once you get the wealth within 80+ maps it makes it more feasible to continue forward. I really hope the change addresses the frequency of -5 to -10 level map drops.

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FafnerTheDragon wrote:

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We do also see more hoarding of maps in this level range, where players often choose to not run these maps (we assume until they improve their character)

No. I have characters that can easily run higher level maps than what I have (79-82), but I chose to keep in the 76/77 range because I have no idea when I will get more top end maps. I am also burning through my 76/77 maps faster than they are getting replaced. People horde because of low supply and the poor positive outlook for future replacement of those maps. Please understand this. If you improve the drop rates, people will horde less, as they know they will have a better chance of replacing the map they just run. Econ 101, really.

exactly mate. I have 9x lvl78 maps in my stash. So why dont I run them? Well I have 5x lvl77 maps, it was about 15x lvl77 maps, I ran 10 of them 20% quality 100%+ quantity + some sort of pack size and... I didnt get a single 77, 78, 79 map back. If I run my last 77 and 78 maps and end up with no 77 or 78 maps left Im not sure Im ever going to play this game again, thats why Im not running them right now and Im spending my time facerolling shit 75/76 content that does nothing for me in an attempt to have enough 77/78 maps that when I run them I might get at least 1 proper map back. Whats happening to my 75/76 maps Im running? My stocks are going down and down and down...




I love the idea of maps, the risk vs reward, investment, the excitement of finding higher maps, that whole dynamic is really cool. Heres the thing, I could write a mini novel about how great communism is and how terrible capitalism is with tons of very valid points... but in practice IT DOESNT WORK, people have tried it, and it failed, so you can take all these romantic theories that sound really super, roll them up in a ball, put it in a bag, go upstairs and flush them down the toilet because thats all theyre good for.

the map system is amazing in theory, I genuinely love the idea, but forget the map system, forget any endgame system and think about this...

If players cant log into the game and play proper content for their character then you dont have a game, they will quit because no matter how amazing your systems are they cant play the bloody game.


Doesnt matter how amazing these ideas for the map system are, doesnt matter how hipster this smoke your blowing up eachothers arses in theory crafting meetings is, if you stop people playing content that is worth their time playing then you dont have a game, its that simple. This game keeps on sucking up tons of players and then it loses them because the game itself forces them to give up when all the want to do is play it, get xp, craft gear, have fun. Oh but we have an orbh system and its bartering and stuff and its risk vs reward and rng and we have maps and theyre risk vs reward and theres these tiers and you invest and its got soul and feels and its interesting and deep and complex and... yeah, take all those ideas and flush them down the toilet like the piece of shit they are if they dont = a game where people can play, craft, get xp, progress and enjoy themselves. If for 2 and a half years straight you systems have been driving your player base insane, fueling unbelievable amounts of hate and anger in your community and forcing players out of your game then it doesnt work, wake up call time, the game has to actually function for the vast majority of your playerbase.

I love the maps, I love the orbs, I love the whole thing... until I go into the game and I actually play it for long periods of time then I absolutely hate them to the point where i want to come on these forums and scream at the devs to stop running this game with these systems that stop players playing the game.

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wake up call time

+1000

Qarl would it be easier for decisions about map etc ... to run some official Poll ( displayed in game ) sorting some important forum suggestions that you are considering ? This way you could have some more data to exploit for player's attempts etc ...

It worked for some others games and i don't see why it wouldn't work here :)
Dev manifesto are a good start to open conv with community i agree but it don't represent the demand as it represent only the one from players who will invest some time writing these forum threads wich is reduced to maybe 500 different players who are often on forum ( average ).

By doing a poll you are asking all your community to invest in the futur of the game wich would be fantastic ( including new players tought ).


If there is a reason for not doing it would you eventualy explain why ?

Thanks for reading

Have a great day

No mention of the actual map problem, +2 only drops from the boss at an extremely low rate. Not only does this create less maps of a higher tier it also excludes ppl who like to keep their xp by not fighting overtuned bosses.

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Dawmz wrote:

Again, opinion. Yeah PoE doesn't have a fully automated AH. I personnally think it's better like that. Could trading be improved ? Certainly. Will it be improved ? Probably.
Still, there are everyday probably hundreds of thousands, maybe millions of transactions happening between PoE players so yeah, it's a very trade/economy centric game. Compared to that, you can't even trade anything between players in D3. Doesn't mean that PoE is right and D3 wrong or vice versa, different games aim for different goals and different design. Choose what you prefer. I'd never suggest to Blizzard to introduce a complex economy in their game, why should I ?

Everything is an opinion when it comes from individuals.
Saying something is an opinion doesnt mean anything. You can as well as go and say the sky is blue.

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Still, there are everyday probably hundreds of thousands, maybe millions of transactions happening between PoE players

And there are a lot more millions of worthy and well priced items sitting in stash tabs or getting vendored after frustration. So we come again to my first point, for a very economy centric game it sure lacks the means to trade. How many years should pass for that to be fixed? Another 3 maybe?

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Compared to that, you can't even trade anything between players in D3

And compared to that, you can post an item in GW2 and it gets sold literally immediately. Why look the worse instead of the best alternative?

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I'd never suggest to Blizzard to introduce a complex economy in their game, why should I ?

This makes no sense whatsoever. I never said poe should change their economy-driven game. I simply said that for such a game, they are doing a pretty bad job at implementing their "vision".

I'm currently playing in warbands with my first char in this league and i can say for a fact that sustaining maps above 73 is like a bad joke.(chisel,alch,chaos,praying etc and still no consistent returns)
When you are praying for a map rather than a unique something's wrong with the design of the system :)).(it feels kinda weird that my progress in a game is gated by rng when it should in fact be gated by difficulty).
As i see it you should be able to sustain fairly easily up to 76-77 and then it gets progressively harder if you try to get higher.


* Weird suggestion ^^:
If you really want to spice things up make bosses drop unidentified corrupted maps(make them almost a guaranteed drop and see people trying to do those(to balance it you could have them give 0 IIR/IIQ bonus but keep all the nasty mods).(in principle this should also make atziri more accessible and people don't have to bother farming corrupted areas anymore).

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Qarl wrote:

We do also see more hoarding of maps in this level range, where players often choose to not run these maps (we assume until they improve their character).

I think it has more to do with the fact that high level maps are worth a lot of currency.