[3.2] Scionic Flametank "16k ES ed." (ES-CI-ZO-GR, SR-CWC-FS, extensive guide)

i absolutely adore this build, i did make some changes, but not many, i lost about 3k es but i got to put in aegis aurora

https://www.pathofexile.com/account/view-profile/Silienia/characters

i love how tanky i am

hey thats a biiiig guy

Is this viable for Shaper in 3.1??

"

3lenis wrote:

Cyclopean_Coil This belt give u a 15% more STR.
The hierophant ascendancy give a ~1000ES form mana.

+1 for the Cyclopean Coil. Isnt quite as beefy as far as total ES if you can get a near max rolls Crystal belt with Strength (or you need the resists) but I like not being ignited and helps with DEX rolls for max Arctic Armour.

Preparations for 3.2 overhaul

I don't play every league and skipped 3.1 without updating this guide, as a quick look at game skill tree/unique changes suggested that the 3.0 guide could be used as-is.

3.2 will obviously be a different matter entirely.

Looking at ascendancies I'm sad to say that the Templar's Hierophant, Marauder's Chieftain, and Witch's Occultist look ideal for this build now due to how significantly they were buffed – especially the Templar Hierophant with spell life leech, arcane surge, and 30% max mana as energy shield looks delicious, but as this has been a Scion flametank since 2015 it will remain so and variant builds are left to others.

And who knows, there might be some tricks the others can't quite match. SO, with that said:

With the Berserker losing generic life leech and only working with attacks that ascendancy is right out. There are now no Scion baby-ascendancies allowing spell life leeching under any circumstanes, which forces a reappraisal of the Ghost Reaver/Warlord's Mark interaction. Perhaps use the second curse for Elemental Weakness (damage) or Temporal Chains or Enfeeble for defense and drop the GR aspect entirely? Not something to be done lightly.

Chieftain looks good: life leech is unfortunately on totem, but everything else is great. 10% strength, 2% life regen, 10% chance to cover enemies in ash on hit? Yeah, that'll do.

Nutty idea: Flame totem in Doon Cuebiyari to plop down on bosses for a bit extra leech? Would only be about 40-50k DPS (estimate) with my level 93 in 3.0 gear so nowhere near hitting the leech cap... not sure doing this just to take advantage of the totem leech aspect is worth it as it'll cost a CWDT – and if one is going to give up a CWDT automatic defense in the first place that provides damage and lots of armour, one could just as well put in a Shield Charge-Faster Attacks-Fortify movement skill.

OTOH the build originally back in 2015 had an automatic turret (because Totems at that time could be stuffed in a CWDT, that's why) and it would be a nice callback. Can a flame totem without crit modifiers reliably keep up Elemental Overload so that particular CWDT isn't needed any more? Can it survive in stressed conditions long enough to actually do so – if the player would have to reapply it constantly it would be a no-go, since frequently applying totems without any totem placement speed buffs is no fun at all.


Trickster despite buffs is amusingly enough roughly the same; the recovery rate bonus is unchanged, it loses 20% increased damage when not on full energy shield (i.e. Most of the time when fighting anything dangerous) and gains 15% of 50% non-chaos as chaos, i.e. ~7.5% more damage as extra chaos on average. So still a good pick, though on balance Chieftain beats it this time around.


Occultist doesn't really provide anything that the build doesn't have, but it would save 3 points for Whispers of Doom and 1 from Unwavering Stance. (And while the evasion one got from not taking US isn't the world, it is something). One might also want to reroute the path in the US corner freeing up even more points since there's no need to track to US, and one could use the Witch starting point to save another 2 skill points in traveling by reallocating after über-Labyrinth. And, of course, 1.5% ES regeneration is always nice. It may compete with Trickster. It definitely doesn't compete with Chieftain.


Elementalist provides 10% fire penetration, full protection from reflected elemental damage, an extra golem, and 40% increased effects of heralds on you, which sounds much better now that we know how the revamped Herald of Ash works for spells (replace Arctic Armour). That's a serious damage upgrade and immunity to one of the few things that can really ruin the day. Doesn't come with the same skill point advantages or regen as Occultist, but depending on how numbers worked out it might even allow one to slot in a life leech in the 6L rather than the final damage link if one really, really, wanted it.


Combinations:

Chi-Tri: Best survivability vs groups of mobs due to the recovery bonus that kicks in when it has recently killed an enemy affected by his DOT but Trickster aspect contributes only damage when fighting solo bosses– restricts spells due to the "recently killed enemy affected by damage over time" aspect.

Chi-Occ: Good allrounder – nothing any longer hinges on killing enemies and so any spell combination (that doesn't rely on picking increased AOE in the skill tree or the like) will work with it, and while it has less survivability vs groups it has better vs bosses.

Chi-Ele: Higher damage, lower defenses in general, BUT reflection immune. Same lack of restrictions.

Occ-Tri and Ele-Tri: Can save some skill points like Chi-Occ, but restrictions are back and as nice as being able to save some skill points to invest other places, 10% extra strength is really hard to compete with even if you manage to save 5-6 points.




New relevant spell in 3.2
Herald of Ash now provides +15% fire damage and +12% more spell fire damage at level 20 for 25% mana reservation. There's also a "more burning" aspect which I'm unsure whether applies only to the Herald of Ash's own ignite or to all burning, such as that from the Scorching Ray.

That makes it a serious contender for replacing Vitality or Arctic Armour with – I'd say Arctic Armour as the vitality auras helps against all types of damage and doesn't have the restriction of standing still.



Information from 3.1 relevant to the build that I'm slowly catching up on:

For those of you who played 3.1, please tell me if there are any items, spells, or game mechanics changes I have overlooked that will be relevant for the 3.2 update. Here is what I have gathered so far:


Uniques:

Cyclopean Coil belt

(+5-15% to all attributes, ignite immunity, a bit of increased damage) looks to be a decent alternative given high rolls until getting a good rare crystal or stygian belt; suffers from lack of resists, but you can use it already from level 68 while Crystal Belts are level 79+


Pure Talent jewel

I like the idea, but the jewel as is falls far short of the power of a good rare jewel with 3 useful affixes. Might be a good for early leveling if one happens to have one on hand.


Watcher's Eye jewel

A Watcher's Eye jewel with either one of these two mods will be truly awesome for the build and anybody who can afford one should do so.

1.0-1.5% of damage leeched as life if affected by Vitality
12-18% of maximum mana as extra maximum energy shield if affected by Clarity (-and free up a socket to add a level 1 Clarity aura somehow)

Either one of these two mods will be great for the build:

1.5-2.5% of maximum energy shield regenerated per second if affected by Discipline
20-30 energy shield gained for each enemy hit while affected by Discipline (beats the ES regeneration mod on groups, loses out to it on bosses)

Another two mods look decent:

100-140 life regenerated per second if affected by Vitality
5-8% chance to block spells while affected by Discipline

...and it goes without saying that a Watcher's Eye with TWO mods from these lists will be even better. (But probably priced out of the range of most players if we are talking about the top tier ones)



The Stygian Vise belts

Can't be shaper/elder from 3.2 onwards. At a glance, if you get one with ES/STR/Res and have an abyss jewel with STR + other good stuff it can compete with a good normal ES/STR/Res crystal belt, but cannot compete with a good elder or shaper ES/Str/Res crystal belt


Shaper/Elder affixes

Amulet:
A normal amulet has only 2 important prefixes (ES, ES%) but way more than 3 good suffixes. Both Elder and Shaper have at least one suffix that is competitive.

ShaperPrefix
Damage penetrates 4-10% elemental resistances great (good)
Increased movement speed 4-8% (decent)
1% increased damage per 15 intelligence (decent)
1% increased damage per 15 dexterity (minor)

ShaperSuffix
6-12% increased attributes (awesome) – even the lowest roll here beats the highest +x to STR suffix that you can roll on an amulet
Grants L22 discipline or vitality useful (minor) -- less useful that a high attribute or resistance roll but still useful and saves a socket


ElderPrefix
0.3-0.5% of fire damage leeched as life (decent)
3-5% life per second to max life leech rate (decent)
1% increased damage per 15 strength (great)
Gain 7-13% of non-chaos damage as extra chaos damage (great)

ElderSuffix
1-2% of Life Regenerated per second (great)


BELT:
ShaperPrefix
15-30% reduced extra damage from critical strikes (great)
4-10% increased maximum energy shield (good)

ShaperSuffix
10-20% increased energy shield recovery rate (awesome)

ElderPrefix
--nothing special

ElderSuffix
6-12% increased attributes (awesome) – best suffix by far on a belt


Ring, Helmet:
Both slots and both Shaper/Elder can get some damage to spells from prefixes, which is obviously nice but not something of real importance to the build. And in the case of the Helmet slot that is at the cost of a prefix that ideally would be one of the ES related prefixes.


Shield:
A shield should ideally use all of its prefixes on ES, but Shaper/Elder shields both have a single very strong suffix as well as some useful prefixes, so they have to be taken into account;

ShaperPrefix – competes with strong ES/ES%/ES-life/ES%/stun
1-2% max cold resistance (decent)
1-2% max lightning resistance (decent)
+1% all max resistances (decent)

ShaperSuffix
Recover 3-5% of energy shield when blocking (awesome) – okay, it isn't a block build, but just having basic block skills means this will trigger often

ElderPrefix
1-2% max fire resistance (decent)

ElderSuffix
3-5% additional physical damage reduction (good)



1h weapon:
Note that Doon Cuebiyari is 32% elemental + STR/8 %damage and + 65-70 strength, giving typically around 190-200% increased spell/elemental damage damage (and lots of ES and ES%) in the endgame, so it takes a LOT to compete with it. A quick glance suggests that it is possible for Elder and Shaper weapons to be generated with a combination of attributes that will make them beat the Doon, but I'll leave further examination of that possibility as an exercise to the reader as such a weapon is guaranteed to be way out of my price range during a league. :-D

Nice, i think this build will really benefit from this update!!

This build commits so completely to stacking strength and energy shield, it makes me wonder. Could it afford to, and benefit from taking more dps somewhere instead? Either from the inherent strength damage bonus (probably using a different main skill), or through picking damage % nodes and items?

"

Trehek wrote:

This build commits so completely to stacking strength and energy shield, it makes me wonder. Could it afford to, and benefit from taking more dps somewhere instead? Either from the inherent strength damage bonus (probably using a different main skill), or through picking damage % nodes and items?

It is a good question.


With regards to skills, it started out as an Incinerate flametank back in 2015 and I've kept it as a fire/spell based tank with "stand still and flame enemies, minimal repositioning in combat needed" since then to sustain that theme.

Currently SR-CWC-Firestorm gives the highest dps with minimal investment of fire spells because of how both SR and duration extending skill nodes function as more multipliers on the firestorm damage, while the SR-CWC setup itself casts firestorm much more rapidly than supporting it with faster casting and spell echo would do, and it does all this while also a) leeching (only from firestorm, but that is enough) and b) killing enemies that have suffered from damage over time recently (to trigger the Trickster recovery bonus).

But I'm likely to drop the Trickster part in this 3.2 revamp, lovely though it is, in favour of a second baby-ascendancy that helps vs bosses since some of the T15 and T16 bosses in 3.0 could kill the tank at level 93 when I wasn't paying attention as I discovered, which opens up for a wider range of skills as b) will no longer be required in that case.

(That is a defensive loss vs groups though, and together with the loss of berserker life-leech vs groups I suspect it might require one to get some of the new items introduced by 3.1 to compensate, so it isn't cut and dried.)

There's absolutely nothing to prevent you from using another skill, but I've not found any spell that can truly compete given the constraints, and as for attack skills benefiting more directly from strength I can't really think of any that support the stand still and flame away approach - but there's of course nothing to prevent you from changing it into a melee build, should you so desire.


As for skill point investment...

Honestly, it could be half as tanky and still be more tanky than the vast majority of builds out there, but it wouldn't achieve my objective of being able to facetank just about everything and go afk just about everywhere that way.

More to the point, perhaps, picking damage% nodes provide so little extra damage.

E.g. I've been using POB to look at a possible CHI-OCC overhaul using my level 93 3.0 Scion's gear for comparison purposes.

My basic gear and skill tree provides 614% increased damage of all types and 92% increased damage with fire, for a total of 706% increased damage. (The bulk of the increase is from strength: 1400 strength => 280% increased from Iron will as well as 175% from Doon Cuebiyari)

It provides 76% more damage of all types and 109% more damage of fire spells, for a total of 267% more damage.

In short, to increase the dps for this build with that gear using damage nodes in the tree by a mere 10% would require picking up around 80% increased damage nodes, which is certainly possible but would cost some 6-8 skill point nodes. Points that would have to go from either strength or int-transformed-to-strength (reducing damage and energy shield), energy shield, or regeneration.

So there's no way that minor modifications to the skill tree that add more damage by taking increased damage nodes is worth it - the drop in tankiness is too large for to a very marginal gain.

But as I said, even if it was only half as tanky it would still be more tanky than most builds, so I could totally see somebody using this general build idea and turning it into a much higher damage build that was still fairly tanky, possibly melee range with an attack skill and picking up some of the life-leech nodes near the current path in the duelist area.

EDIT: In this case using CHI-SLA or CHI_CHA would probably be better options.

Current state of revamp:

This is all POB theorycrafting so far using my level 93 3.0 Ascendant and equipment. As I don't know yet how difficult it will be to get some of the nice gear introduced in 3.1 I don't want to count on it (yet).

The Pantheon bonuses have been hand-crafted on to the amulet for simulation purposes as POB does not yet support the Pantheon.

POB pastebin link:

https://pastebin.com/HP0XaTaY


There are four branches, the default branch where I mess around and the three useful ascendancies with my currently best stab at a level 93 skill tree.

default (whatever I'm fucking around with at the moment)
CHI-OCC
CHI-TRI
CHI-ELE

Configuration is "fighting vs standard monsters, using frenzy charges, on consecrated ground, recently hit, killed enemy affected by your DOT recently (only seen for CHI-TRI)"

To see numbers vs. boss remember to not only set boss in the configuration but also to click "enemy is covered in ash" (comes from the Chieftain ascendancy)

To see numbers vs. solo boss remember to unclick recently killed an enemy affected by DOT if using the CHI-TRI ascendancy.

Simulating using the new Herald of Ash is done by using custom amethyst flasks. One for use with the CHI-ELE ascendancy, one for use with CHI-OCC and CHI-TRI. Do not enable both at the same time, that would be cheating. :p



Since I've just fielded a question about dps, let me note that the highest possible dps and least tankiness unsurprisingly comes from the CHI-ELE variant using Herald of Ash, and it is as follows (with sulphur and atziri's flask enabled because I want to cheese the numbers, of course. :p)

-- err, and 15.3k ES pool, but only 5.9k ES/s recovered assuming no leech

vs. standard small size=2 mobs

113k dps Scorching Ray/8 stages
-- this is a joke, of course, as no normal mob lives in the SR/Firestorm long enough to gain 8 stages of SR, but hey, that's what the POB theorycraft says

278k sustained dps Firestorm on average if affected by the SR/8 debuff
- and the on average is important to remember; some mobs will get lucky and survive much longer than might be expected from the raw figure because they miraculously don't get hit, others will die in the blink of an eye. But there are so many overlapping Firestorms when it is sustained that nobody beats the odds for long - within a few seconds all normal mobs are dead. And they won't all be affected by the SR debuff anyhow, because they'll melt before reaching it if they aren't already in it. So this really is an arse-pull number since its only relation to reality is this: "white monsters just die and blue monsters are quickly wiped, okay?"



vs. standard size=4 mobs

109k dps Scorching Ray/8 stages
378k sustained dps Firestorm on average



So, Shaper/Guardians... That means covered in Ash from CHI (yay!) and lots of resistance (booh!)

Bosses have very different sizes. I'm putting the Shaper/Guardians here as sizes=4,5, and 6 but I might well be wrong. For all I know they might be larger. It is my best guess but there's really no easy way to discover their hitbox size.

vs. Shaper/Guardians
74k dps Scorching Ray/8 stages

Size = 4: 262k sustained dps Firestorm
Size = 5: 301k sustained dps Firestorm
Size = 6: 342k sustained dps Firestorm

Thanks for the in-depth response!