[2.4] The Dy'Ness Tank

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NJLGrimm wrote:

Honestly i completely forgot about growth and decay

Glad I could help you, then. :)

Hey you all!

Been looking at your build regularly Dyness for the last month(s) and I'll probably pick it up in the next expansion.
I like your build as it is, going for the tankiest approach possible from the energy shield regen perspective. But with the new Asendancy classes I've come to a halt. I'm not a great PoE player, but I've played my fair share. I've seen you people discuss poison builds and so on.

I was fairly certain that I'd run Occultist until I had a peak in here now today. The Inquisitor has peaked my interests somewhat.

Alot of things have been discussed, and I've got many questions. Too many in fact, but I'll go ahead and narrow it down to the most important one to me. Poison damage VS. Fire damage.

""Enfeeble+Temporal Chains + fire damage focus and good regeneration at all times: Marauder-Chieftain.
Enfeeble+Temporal Chains + chaos-poison damage focus and good regeneration vs. groups: Scion Berserker/Trickster.
Enfeeble+Temporal Chains + chaos-poison damage focus and decent regeneration at all times: Scion Berserker/Occultist.
Enfeeble+Warlord's Mark + chaos-poison damage focus and max regeneration vs. groups: Shadow-Trickster.
Enfeeble+Warlord's Mark + max regeneration vs. solo bosses: Templar-Inquisitor.
Enfeeble+Warlord's Mark + good regeneration and high damage vs. groups: Witch-Occultist."" -Pi22Epsilon

In the poison builds The Consuming Dark is a needed item I'd presume, which is somewhat of a minus considering additional expenses. Is chaos-poison better as a overall damage source?

Also, when and where does this general build falter? Solo target or against groups? I was considering the new tree node which was recently shown by... (LiftingNerd or Ziggy), which reads something similar to "On crit, gain a 8 second elemental damage buff of 40%, but crit multiplier doesn't work" This is why I considered Occultiest because of the power charge node there which works well with crit chance. Although the chances for it to proc might be too low perhaps.

@Nickolai20599

Heh, I can see I need to update my post above; It still includes the Inquisitor. After I read up on the Ascendancy Sulphur Flask, which with its 40% increased damage + consecrated ground steals the Inquisitor's gimmick guaranteeing that it will become the go-to flask for all ES regen builds, Inquisitor just doesn't seem so good a choice any more.

In the decision matrix the poison damage refers to using Consuming Dark as you suspect and slotting an Added Chaos Damage instead of Fire Penetration in the Incinerate link.

In 2.1 you ended up with roughly the same damage vs. normal targets using the fire and chaos approach (when contrasting a good but not great wand with Consuming Dark), with an advantage to fire when targets had no resistances at all and an advantage to chaos when they had resistances since a lot more enemies have fire resistance than chaos resistance (and it's a map mod too), and they typically have higher fire resistance as well when they have both. Chaos also had the option of scaling for anybody focusing on damage (in a tank build... I know... but it is an option) by deploying a wither spell totem. Going chaos of course had the added benefit of trivializing all elemental reflect.

In 2.2 the poison is important for triggering the Trickster's superb increased recovery effect (60% for Shadow-Trickster, 30% for Scion-Trickster) but remains the least part of the total damage, and if one wants to play Occultist then chaos damage is supported there as well though it isn't required.


As for your question of when the Dy'Ness build falters... As far as I'm aware, its only weaknesses are the ones its shares with my Scionic Flametank - throw enough enemies at it and they may be able to overwhelm its regeneration faster than they can be killed.

The answer to this is to have a movement skill and possibly a Vaal Discipline or two slotted if one ever feels this is a problem.

It can also theoretically be stunlocked or perma-frozen and worn down by enemies while the player is unable to act, but there are very, very, few enemies capable of doing this. Examples of this is Crematorium Megaera and Graveyard Merveil that demand respect (or at least attention) until one has good gear... Well, good gear or choose to cheese it; E.g. wear the cheap Wanderlust boots with Freeze immunity when fighting Graveyard Merveil.

Generally, my Flametank doesn't get killed in PvE save through the player's overconfidence once it has come far enough to go CI and has decent gear and I expect Dy'Ness would say the same for the Dy'Ness tank.

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Pi2rEpsilon wrote:

@Nickolai20599

Heh, I can see I need to update my post above; It still includes the Inquisitor. After I read up on the Ascendancy Sulphur Flask, which with its 40% increased damage + consecrated ground steals the Inquisitor's gimmick guaranteeing that it will become the go-to flask for all ES regen builds, Inquisitor just doesn't seem so good a choice any more.

In the decision matrix the poison damage refers to using Consuming Dark as you suspect and slotting an Added Chaos Damage instead of Fire Penetration in the Incinerate link.

In 2.1 you ended up with roughly the same damage vs. normal targets using the fire and chaos approach (when contrasting a good but not great wand with Consuming Dark), with an advantage to fire when targets had no resistances at all and an advantage to chaos when they had resistances since a lot more enemies have fire resistance than chaos resistance (and it's a map mod too), and they typically have higher fire resistance as well when they have both. Chaos also had the option of scaling for anybody focusing on damage (in a tank build... I know... but it is an option) by deploying a wither spell totem. Going chaos of course had the added benefit of trivializing all elemental reflect.

In 2.2 the poison is important for triggering the Trickster's superb increased recovery effect (60% for Shadow-Trickster, 30% for Scion-Trickster) but remains the least part of the total damage, and if one wants to play Occultist then chaos damage is supported there as well though it isn't required.


As for your question of when the Dy'Ness build falters... As far as I'm aware, its only weaknesses are the ones its shares with my Scionic Flametank - throw enough enemies at it and they may be able to overwhelm its regeneration faster than they can be killed.

The answer to this is to have a movement skill and possibly a Vaal Discipline or two slotted if one ever feels this is a problem.

It can also theoretically be stunlocked or perma-frozen and worn down by enemies while the player is unable to act, but there are very, very, few enemies capable of doing this. Examples of this is Crematorium Megaera and Graveyard Merveil that demand respect (or at least attention) until one has good gear... Well, good gear or choose to cheese it; E.g. wear the cheap Wanderlust boots with Freeze immunity when fighting Graveyard Merveil.

Generally, my Flametank doesn't get killed in PvE save through the player's overconfidence once it has come far enough to go CI and has decent gear and I expect Dy'Ness would say the same for the Dy'Ness tank.

Thank you for the (what I'd call) elaborate response!

I'd imagine Void Beacon in the Occultist is the go to for the last two points over Forbidden power due to it being very inconsistent. But the Inquisitor brings alot of damage to the table and you'll be able to save a flask slot for something else, right? It eases down on the mana usage and gives 1% of regen ontop of that. I'm considering the fact that the build might benefit a fair bit from the damage and in build sustain through conc. ground and an extra flask? A good offense can be considered a great defense as well if you understand what I'm getting at. The % might not be high for a damage build but since this build in itself doesn't focus on damage, the increases in each node becomes alot more valueable on their own?
I'm trying to argue for my perspective, although it might not be backed up all that well.

The ups of the Berserker(occultist scion pick) are high, but isn't the 5% rather large? I'm A HC player just for refference.

Anyways, seems like the Occultist is a better pick for leveling and the trickster is somewhat better towards the end game. You can't respec those points I'd presume? Both paths seem to focus on the trash survivability route rather than anything else since not all bosses reliably spawns trash. Occultist does fill in the blank of being able to somewhat negate stunlocks, and I'd presume that during the 4 second recharge phase you're close to invinsible with all the regeneration that's going on? (Same obviously goes for the Patient Reaper, but one can only be procced through taking no damage and the other is through killing). After looking at this, it does feel like that the Trickster has more going for it than the Occultist?

Random question, but what would you say when it comes to the up keep on Enfeeble CWDT? Not too familiar with the numbers and averages (looking at scion Occultist path for 20% damage buff)

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Nickolai20599 wrote:

I'd imagine Void Beacon in the Occultist is the go to for the last two points over Forbidden power due to it being very inconsistent.

I'd say Profane Bloom over either of them if your Occultist is using fire damage, Void Beacon only if you are using Consuming Dark.

"

But the Inquisitor brings alot of damage to the table and you'll be able to save a flask slot for something else, right? It eases down on the mana usage and gives 1% of regen ontop of that. I'm considering the fact that the build might benefit a fair bit from the damage and in build sustain through conc. ground and an extra flask? A good offense can be considered a great defense as well if you understand what I'm getting at. The % might not be high for a damage build but since this build in itself doesn't focus on damage, the increases in each node becomes alot more valueable on their own?
I'm trying to argue for my perspective, although it might not be backed up all that well.

I'm trying to see it from your point.. and mostly failing. Yes, it is nice not getting it from the flask... but on the OTHER hand, you can get just as much passive regeneration without effort while playing apart from keeping up endurance charges using the Chieftain build, which also gives you 1% fire leech and allows you to use such a flask.

As for the "a lot of damage" the inquisitor brings, that is exactly 50% increased elemental damage and a 10% MORE elemental damage to nearby enemies.

For comparison, the aforementioned Chieftain brings 30% increased fire damage, 35% increased damage against burning enemies, and 10% fire penetration, which taken together means that against burning enemies that Chieftain does more damage, whereas for enemies that don't burn the Inquisitor deals more damage for low-FR enemies while the Chieftain deals more damage for high-FR enemies.

And as for an Occultist will either bring an effective 20% MORE on the chaos damage portion of her damage vs enemies with no chaos resistance (if taking Vile Beacon and using Consuming Dark) or an unpredictable amount of damage to groups from corpse explosions (Profane Bloom, works with either fire or chaos build). In neither of these cases is it easy to say who deals most damage, Inquisitor or Occultist... it depends.

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The ups of the Berserker(occultist scion pick) are high, but isn't the 5% rather large? I'm A HC player just for refference.

It IS very large. It effectively devalues every scrap of ES and ES regeneration you have. For comparison, a non-Berserker with x% regeneration gains the same survivability from regeneration as a Berserker with x%/1.05 regeneration. It likewise devalues leech, and likewise reduces the size of spike damage you can survive.

Is the worth of having inbuilt 1.5% ES leech (regardless of whether you use chaos or fire) and allowing you to use a second defensive curse via Whispers of Doom worth it in hardcore... I'm unsure. After all, there is the option of playing Chieftain without that drawback and more passive regeneration while maintaining endurance charges and 1% ES leech from fire. OTOH, it must be noted that the Chieftain can be very skillpoint hungry compared to the others in gaining that regeneration.

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Anyways, seems like the Occultist is a better pick for leveling and the trickster is somewhat better towards the end game. You can't respec those points I'd presume?

You can respec ascendancy points at the cost of 5 respec points each, so changing a full ascendancy costs 30 orbs of regret, while swapping one Scion baby-ascenancy for another of the same parent class costs 5, and swapping it for another of a different parent class costs 15.

If you play a Chieftain, Trickster, Occultist, or Inquisitor ES regen tank you'll pretty much be locked into the niche of focusing on the aspects that makes them strong for ES tanking and running with it until the next full respec regardless of what mechanics balancing and introduction of new items occur. And don't take me wrong, the dedicated classes ascendancies ARE individually stronger than any two of the Scion's baby-ascendancies when one focuses primarily on the aspects the dedicated classes' ascendancies rock with. The Scion only stands a chance by comparison when looking beyond that and won't always end up looking good by comparison.

If you play a Scion ES regen tank, you gain flexibility. You can be Berserker/Trickster one day, Berserker/Occultist another, or even Trickster/Occultist. Heck, you can start farting Chaos wither spell totems (GGG is going to fix the bug with wither that makes it not apply to direct damage any day now) and go Chieftain/Occultist with Consuming Dark if you so want... so long as you have enough respec points.

I see. I thought I had decided on going a Trickster, but I realised the obvious just a moment ago. quite a few points would have to go into sub-optimal nodes just to get to the regular route of the tree.

Come to think of it, although the Trickster grants better survivability against packs rather than bosses. But the Occultist is actually somewhat more versatile since it grants the kill regen, anti stunlock and also a better healing source against single mobs ontop of that. Whilst the Trickster is somewhat of a one trick pony with added benefit of overall defenses, the Occultist is more of a Jack of all trades but master of none.

Chieftain is somewhat alluring still, but I do believe it comes down to the Trickster or Occultist. Based on the above and the fact that some points would have to go to 'waste',(Not entirely true, but the points would be allocated elsewhere if possible.) I'm leaning towards the Occultist right now.
This is probably the last thing I'm going to bring up, but please do try to sway me if you think something else.

Thanks for your input again by the way!

EDIT: Just had a look at the patch notes, "The chaos damage conversion on The Consuming Dark has been lowered from 75% to 50%.". That makes the chaos nodes much worse as well.
"Added a new Keystone Passive - Elemental Overload: 40% more Elemental Damage if you've Crit in the past 8 seconds. No Critical Strike Multiplier." That's the node I mentioned previously FYI.

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Nickolai20599 wrote:

I see. I thought I had decided on going a Trickster, but I realised the obvious just a moment ago. quite a few points would have to go into sub-optimal nodes just to get to the regular route of the tree.

That's the price one has to pay; Either

5: 14% elem dmg, and 12 base ES, 40 INT
8: 76% elem dmg, and 12 base ES, 30 INT, 10 DEX
9: 108% elem dmg, and 12 base ES, 10 INT, 10 DEX, 10% chance to avoid elem. status ailments, 10% increased duration of elem. status ailments on enemies.

So in practice, a choice between 5 and 9, 8 being decidedly inferior.

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Come to think of it, although the Trickster grants better survivability against packs rather than bosses.

Yep. It is the best, by far, against packs in terms of pure regeneration. Against bosses, no.

What about the Guardian, seems pretty strong. For me its either occultist or guardian.

So right now we are still discussing the difference between Chieftain, Occulist and Guardian...

As someone who play self-found, I don't have the best gear imaginable. The issue is that these three options are three entirely separate classes, as such I really need to pick one of them to start with tomorrow. I haven't got a Consuming Dark and not likely to get one anytime soon.

My current ES tank is the Scion, I have a spare Witch that I was using for flame totem MFing, that if needed I can convert to Occulist. I have a level 80 Templar I haven't touched for a year.

I guess what I am saying, is that I am going to have to dump my Scion. But I can't decide which path to take. I care very much more on single-target fights against bosses, as my priority is surviving against a boss rather than clear speed. Which is the absolute tankiest against Single Target? The one that allow me to survive boss hits, that wouldn't make me desperate for flask refills?

I never played a Templar build that I liked. Right now I am hoping 2.2 would bring something different. As someone who only ever killed Atziri once, All I want is a build that can survive the Trio and Atziri. I am hoping that one of these three Ascendency classes would do the trick.

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VallenChaosValiant wrote:

So right now we are still discussing the difference between Chieftain, Occulist and Guardian...

As someone who play self-found, I don't have the best gear imaginable. The issue is that these three options are three entirely separate classes, as such I really need to pick one of them to start with tomorrow. I haven't got a Consuming Dark and not likely to get one anytime soon.

My current ES tank is the Scion, I have a spare Witch that I was using for flame totem MFing, that if needed I can convert to Occulist. I have a level 80 Templar I haven't touched for a year.

I guess what I am saying, is that I am going to have to dump my Scion. But I can't decide which path to take. I care very much more on single-target fights against bosses, as my priority is surviving against a boss rather than clear speed. Which is the absolute tankiest against Single Target? The one that allow me to survive boss hits, that wouldn't make me desperate for flask refills?

I never played a Templar build that I liked. Right now I am hoping 2.2 would bring something different. As someone who only ever killed Atziri once, All I want is a build that can survive the Trio and Atziri. I am hoping that one of these three Ascendency classes would do the trick.

I'll just cut it short, if you're after the tankiest option for single target fights, I'd say it's the Occultist. All due to just superior defense stats and regen in terms of 1v1 combat (although you could argue that Chieftain has better overall regen and damage, but a smaller health pool and less burst regen).
Guardian is an interesting choice, one of which I havn't looked into with this build in mind thus far, but full block could be interesting. VERY interesting. It's just that the duelist is located so far down in the tree. Will edit this post after I've had a good look at it.

Simply put, a good offense can be considered a good defense as well. Depending on your playstyle, chieftain and Occultist are interesting picks. But instead of chieftain with its damage and regen, I'd probably pick the Trickster. with just a few nodes you get 100+ elemental damage and some nice raw defensive stats. But the 1v1 boss scenario is going to be worse than the Occultist and Chieftain most of the times unless there are trash mobs spawned by said boss.

I'm like you, I value the boss battles a fair bit more than trash packs at the very moment. Thus I'm split between the Occultist and the Trickster. Shadow brings alot of damage, whilst the Witch is somewhat tankier (This has nothing to do with the ascendancy classes, but because of the starting areas of the classes)

As it stands, I'm leaning towards Occultist because of the raw defensive stats over the elemental damage. It all comes down to flavor though.