DEVS Listen up: Some Vital PvP Suggestions

This game has it all, except great PvP atm. Here are some suggestions by an experienced former PvP player and Hack n'slash entusiast, which will adress for improved pvp. As a further notice, i have tested PvP a few times and these suggestions are based upon that, as well as player threads that i've seen and last but not least just a winning concept for Pvp to blossom to it's full potential.


1) MOST crucial Point. Make players host/create PvP games just like the public parties on the noticeboard (similar) as we see in game atm. Let the players write game name and be able to set Lvl restrictions (free access from 10-max lvl with inclines of 5: e.g lvl 10-25 if you want to do that) in a similar way D2 worked (and it worked flawless. Played D2 PvP for 4 years). Then there will be no problems with too big lvl differences. Let the player choose. Also it will be easy for a friend(s) to join and team up in e.g 2on2 3on3 4on4 and to team up while waiting for people to join etc which leads to the second point.


2) Add 2on2. 2on2 is probably the most fun PvP and a really important aspect of PvP, being able to duel others with a friend. Anyhing between 1on1 to 4on4 would be good to implement as a part of point 1. But up to 3on3 is fine. So 1on1, 2on2, 3on3 and perhaps 4on4.


3) Add (expand) bigger maps (more space) that adds more tactical aspects and variations.


4) Take away all the OP Flasks in PvP (This is truly crap for the game, simple is that). Flasks is a part of the game (and so should it continue to be), but not the ones that add XXXX Armor etc etc. Make pvp to only resolve around existing mana and life Flasks (the ones you can find by monster drops), not around Supreme adds/flasks that really hurt the skilled aspect of the game.


5) Nerf all dmg by 2-4 times (in pvp compared to Pvm), E.g 400 dmg in PvM divided by 4 = 100 dmg in PVP, which will prolong the duel. 1-2 hit KO someone is not a successful PvP, unless the gear difference is substantial. The battles should last a bit longer.


6) Don't base Duels too much on Lvls. Lvls should not mean anything (unless we talk 15-20 lvls+ difference. It should be about GEAR, BUILD, and mostly SKILL, nothing else. That's the golden rule for any PvP in Action RPG's.



These are simple but 100% successful changes to PvP (no matter what, PvP in this game is the nr 1 most important aspect). There is a reason why there are quite a few that has complained about PvP from what i've seen. And we all know (or at least you should know), that PvP is what makes a hack'n slash RPG to live on for years. If PvP fails = any RPG of this type will slowly die no matter how good the PvM part is, there is no question about it. The only reason D2 is still active after 10 years with a quite active player base still, is solely because of the Simple yet effective PvP formula (without it, D2 would have died after 2-4 years at most). The Pvp is crucial to this game as far as i'm concered. Also it's simplicity in it's own right is most often the best. You don't need to add leagues, rewards or statistics and all of this shit we see developers do over and over in other games. It just creates animosity (There is no compulsion) and ruin the simple joy of just play and let loose, having fun and focus on the formula that this genre highlights: to make loads of builds and test them in different variations in both PVM and PVP in an enjoyable fast paced envorinment. All that is needed is fun, fast and working pvp in all it's simpicity because Action RPG's of this calibre is the best PvP you can experience if done correctly (can't even compare to MMOS).

This game has been the best, most positive experience for me on the RPG front since D2 and the only game that has set me on fire ever since (it's potentially the best Free Rpg ever made atm as far as i'm concerned). Make this game perfect by making the right PvP changes. Please listen to this Devs (i don't care if some of the early beta testers say "NO it's good as it is!) = irrelevant in the bigger picture). These changes and notifications will benefit everyone and PvP will become huge, thus will keep this game running for a decade (100% sure). Good and working PvP is truly a make or break deal. I really hope we will see these changes in the future.


Further more, i can say i admire this company for making such a quality product so far (i was about to leave RPG's forever and just keep playing FPS) and you guys can rest assured i will support you as much as i can, be it by purchasing points for 100s (i give you my word on that, that's how much potential i think this game has) of dollars just to support you or anything else, if you guys can pull of a great and awesome pvp (improve) by the suggestions above or something similar. I'm so tired of all the shit titles the past couple of years (in general) that i basically adore you guys (devs) for coming up with this quality product (D2 look alike or not, this is exactly what the market needed as i don't even count D3 and it's failure, boring gameplay with their delayed non-existant PvP. They failed on their own winning concept from D2, sadly) where you get this much value for playing. You demand nothing, yet you offer everything. I take my hat of to you devs, srsly. You are awesome.


Best Regards
TheJesus/Karsk1n

use forum before post this thing
srsly
pvp will be updated soon
and damage already reduced in pvp a lot

There is always people like you complaining in every forum (with a negative hint "read forum dude" or similar)--> Expected that. You do realize the impact of a thread is quite significative depending if you make a new one or if posting in older/spammed ones? Further more, I can't go through every single thread, nor do i have time or energy to do so. I posted this because i wanted to and because i wanted this specifically highlighted as something very important (and it truly is), and because (despite what's in change as of now) write down 100% the right way to go as far as pvp is concerned, plain and simple. If some of these changes are in progress right now that i haven't picked up = that is awesome. Either way, this route is the way to go, and i truly hope devs read this and take it to their hearts content.

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kiersz wrote:

use forum before post this thing
srsly
pvp will be updated soon
and damage already reduced in pvp a lot

It doesn't matter how much damage has been reduced already if the reduced amount is still enough to 1-shot a tank. This is a game where players can crit for 100k or more. PVP durability should be closer to Street Fighter than Pac-Man, and to this end cutting damage down by half or possibly even 3/4 would be reasonable, with some other PVP-only changes like reducing health/ES regen rate and nerfing Flicker Strike range, slow/stun duration and Bear Trap. It might even be warranted to reduce critical chance and/or multiplier in PVP. The developers have been responsive to the community so far, and these sentiments have been posted elsewhere, so it's probable that they will be implemented as part of the update. However, the dismissive tone you're exhibiting here is unhelpful, especially when it's widely known that PVP is currently profoundly unbalanced.

I really like these ideas. Very good suggestions. I only do not fully agree on nm. 4. I think those flasks are not OP because they last short duration and you have very limited number of them because they do not refill. They might be little bit nerfed but otherwise I like them since they offer more strategy ingame. After all most ppl using dispel frozen and imunity to cures potions instead of extra armor or smth like that.
Also, there should be some signs (like imunity to curses sign) that player used particular potion, so that oponenet would know when it is dangerous.

@TheJesuz
Your complaints and wishes seem only fair and I do agree with you on most of your thoughts. I do have a few things I'd like to add myself.

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TheJesuz wrote:

4) Take away all the OP Flasks in PvP (This is truly crap for the game, simple is that). Flasks is a part of the game (and so should it continue to be), but not the ones that add XXXX Armor etc etc. Make pvp to only resolve around existing mana and life Flasks (the ones you can find by monster drops), not around Supreme adds/flasks that really hurt the skilled aspect of the game.

Some of the flasks are extremely good and they do indeed make a world of a difference. That is why you can't force the players not to use the flasks they've been using in the casual pve aspects. Talents, gems, gear and actual strategic experience revolves around leveling and smashing in pve. Since flasks are such a huge part of the game, taking away those essentially forces you to completely re-think your strategies for pvp. As I see it, pvp is to individual teams (be it one, two, three players a team) like fighting a unique elite/rare/boss mob. The sooner you can predict the opponent's movements, attacks, and defenses, the sooner you can know what to do. You still have your skills, equipment, and flasks, so all you have to do is change your own movements, attacks, and active defenses to better your chances of winning the fight. Now take away those flask bonuses and you won't even be able to predict your own attacks. To me, that sounds like a totally different game and you will have to choose passive skills and equipment to match either pve or pvp - or you could throw away your "OP" flasks in pve and teach yourself to survive like that. That'll give you a major disadvantage in comparison to everybody else, though.
Lowering damage done in pvp won't have any negative side effects. You can still use your own strategies, only the fight will take a bit longer and you'll have to take that into consideration. By the way, choosing which flasks to use and when to use them, that's also skills - with personal skills (not gems) and experience (not xp) you can improve your gameplay through the use of flasks. If a fight drags out, the one who was most conservative will most likely be the winner.

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AValidAccountName wrote:

(...) cutting damage down by half or possibly even 3/4 would be reasonable, with some other PVP-only changes like reducing health/ES regen rate and nerfing Flicker Strike range, slow/stun duration and Bear Trap. It might even be warranted to reduce critical chance and/or multiplier in PVP.

Again, reducing regen, nerfing range, and decreasing stun duration will force you to re-think your strategies. All good players know exactly how well their skills work and they know how to make use of every single second of a battle. If you reduce critical strike chance/multiplier you will do injustic to those who play by their crits rather than a steady, even amount of damage.

Furthermore, do you realise what an ARPG is? Even an RPG? You take on a role of some character, you play in a virtual world, you complete quests and, as an added bonus of it being hack'n'slash, you brutally murder huge clusters of mobs. Don't even think that RPG can't survive without pvp. Let me give you an example - the foundation, the very idea, one of the first RPGs ever made: Diablo. Not Diablo II, not Diablo III, just Diablo. It didn't even have multiplayer. When the Hellfire expansion was released, suddenly you could do pvp but since it was horribly inbalanced people would usually avoid it. Instead, they teamed up and played together. Diablo was and still is, if you ask me, the best in the series, and it survived for a long time even with stupidly unfair pvp.
To make my point clear, look at Path of Exile. What do you achieve through pvp? Skills, maybe, and that's it. No xp, no gear, no gems, no point, no nothing. Pvp is not what drives the game forward, that which drives the game forward is and will always be for every single RPG ever to be made, the storyline, the quests, the leveling. They can easily delay the pvp development without people quitting; they can even remove it and most people would still play the game and enjoy it.

Without good pvp, game can remain popular, but if GGG wants to make it as popular as LoL or something like that, they have to implement good pvp. Then, game can be extremely popular and last very long, maybe even many decades, if its really well balanced, fun and chalanging (in pvp), with many Lan and online tournaments. Thats what I see as a potential of PoE if fully realised.
Otherwise, beating brainless AI never lasts long because people wants variety for that. So after some time, they will choose another game. But for pvp, ppl can stick to same game for ages. For example, ppl are playing chess, poker for hundreds of years, heroes of might and magic 3 for ~15 years without loosing interest.

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TheJesuz wrote:

4) Take away all the OP Flasks in PvP (This is truly crap for the game, simple is that). Flasks is a part of the game (and so should it continue to be), but not the ones that add XXXX Armor etc etc. Make pvp to only resolve around existing mana and life Flasks (the ones you can find by monster drops), not around Supreme adds/flasks that really hurt the skilled aspect of the game.

Those Flasks are not really OP in my oppinion, and there is also an animation when you have one active, so your opponent can just react to it, and change his strategy for this short time.

I have probably played 150-200 PvP matches in Closed Beta and I can tell you something for sure:

There are other things which are way more "OP" in PvP... ;)

So..., in my oppinion Flasks with effects like +4k to armor, or more lightning resist / max resist for a short duration are a really nice addition and add a nice aspect to the game, which also allows lot more build diversity.

"

maqhem wrote:

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AValidAccountName wrote:

(...) cutting damage down by half or possibly even 3/4 would be reasonable, with some other PVP-only changes like reducing health/ES regen rate and nerfing Flicker Strike range, slow/stun duration and Bear Trap. It might even be warranted to reduce critical chance and/or multiplier in PVP.

Again, reducing regen, nerfing range, and decreasing stun duration will force you to re-think your strategies. All good players know exactly how well their skills work and they know how to make use of every single second of a battle. If you reduce critical strike chance/multiplier you will do injustice to those who play by their crits rather than a steady, even amount of damage.

Eh, reducing crits may be a bit much. I stand by everything else, though. Flicker Strike has absolutely no counterplay and this is a severe problem, while Ice Spear and Bear Trap just do too much damage, although Ice Spear's damage is largely because of the freeze. Also, I'm trying to think ahead; once these absurdly OP abilities are inevitably nerfed, ES will be OP. Just saying "adapt to this unbalanced situation or you're bad" is dodging an issue which will cause many players to not want to play PvP and thus robbing the game of things which could make it better through lost revenue. Maybe some people are happy with a small cult-like following, but GGG won't be able to afford server costs with just that.

"

Furthermore, do you realise what an ARPG is? Even an RPG? You take on a role of some character, you play in a virtual world, you complete quests and, as an added bonus of it being hack'n'slash, you brutally murder huge clusters of mobs. Don't even think that RPG can't survive without pvp. Let me give you an example - the foundation, the very idea, one of the first RPGs ever made: Diablo. Not Diablo II, not Diablo III, just Diablo. It didn't even have multiplayer. When the Hellfire expansion was released, suddenly you could do pvp but since it was horribly inbalanced people would usually avoid it. Instead, they teamed up and played together. Diablo was and still is, if you ask me, the best in the series, and it survived for a long time even with stupidly unfair pvp.
To make my point clear, look at Path of Exile. What do you achieve through pvp? Skills, maybe, and that's it. No xp, no gear, no gems, no point, no nothing. Pvp is not what drives the game forward, that which drives the game forward is and will always be for every single RPG ever to be made, the storyline, the quests, the leveling. They can easily delay the pvp development without people quitting; they can even remove it and most people would still play the game and enjoy it.

I played the first Diablo (which did in fact have multiplayer in vanilla, albeit with bad PvP balance which decisively favored sorcerers) and Diablo II extensively. Your objections would be more valid if this was still 2001. Nowadays a hell of a lot more people play online games, and the overwhelming majority of them want PvP. As a corollary, they don't want a PvP experience where a few builds dominate everything else and the only way to win is to run those builds. Not only is it unfun on its face, it goes against everything PoE is about, which is the freedom to be creative with builds.

Reduce pvp dmg by 400%? One shot fest = fun, 30minutes running around pillar = boring.