Nightmare maps?? Still needs work

I just don't really understand how doing maps with all these mods that brick builds is preparation for Uber bosses that don't have any of these mods.

I still think this entire process needs to be reworked in some way yet again. The fact that they were already nerfed from being T17(monster lvl 84) says something to me. I guess instead of balancing the monsters and bosses it's up to every individual player to roll maps for ages in order to get the balance right? Awful gameplay... rolling maps is more tedious than anything else in the game.

They've removed all build-specific mods without exception. Which one are you struggling with?

You can make them have 0 mods by using both Bisection scarabs now, together with a Stability scarab for more portals they're actually bearable.

But the fact you need to use those 3 scarabs to make them not annoying says a lot about the design of these maps lol

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Toforto#2372 wrote:

But the fact you need to use those 3 scarabs to make them not annoying says a lot about the design of these maps lol

If you need a full scarab setup and 6+ portals just to get through a blank Nightmare map, it’s hard to pin that on map design or write it off as annoying design.

Maps with no mods are already about as low pressure and forgiving as mapping gets, and the fact the build is struggling even there says more about the character than the content itself. If the build is hitting a wall under those conditions, the issue probably isn’t that the maps need further attention, it’s that the character does.

At that point the biggest obstacle isn’t the content, it’s the build trying to run it.

If you're playing sc (especially sctrade) and can't get through nm maps you have an issue with your build.

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Lonnie455Rich#2087 wrote:

If you're playing sc (especially sctrade) and can't get through nm maps you have an issue with your build.

I did the 175% quant nightmare maps challenge solo, doesn't mean I don't hate these maps and their bosses lol

Especially the Ziggurat Catarina one is the worst, I literally have to chain-die on purpose every time she goes into immunity phase and slams the ground, because its actually impossible to know where it will happen+all the other random nonsense happening in the tiny boss arena.Like maybe if there was a red circle I could see and dodge that slam.

And after that if I wanna grind them for fragments then 1x bisection scarab to make it have prefixes or suffixes only that don't affect me in any way+stability for more portals just makes it way less annoying to do these maps.

I don't know what kinds of builds ssf hc god gamers play, but here in SC Trade we play with negative chaos res and randomly flamedash into a pack and die. That's the experience of the average player.

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Toforto#2372 wrote:

but here in SC Trade we play with negative chaos res and randomly flamedash into a pack and die. That's the experience of the average player.

It's pretty much only you who does that.

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Scarletsword#4354 wrote:

It's pretty much only you who does that.

I dunnoooo. With the amount of "pls carry this boss or that map I'm stuck" I see every day in global 820 and 420 I don't think that's the case. And I'm not saying that's a bad thing either, carries are extremely popular and profitable in sc trade because people either don't like the content so they pay a few divs or their build isn't made to be able to do it so they have no other choice. This is what uber bosses and nightmare maps are, though the maps at least got nerfed a bit.

Like in settlers league I helped an RF player do his ship pirate boss because he was too scared to go in there alone. It felt great to help him.

You seriously overestimate what builds most people play, not everyone is playing [current best meta thing] while stacking [best defenses] and having 10 mil dps. Because those builds are either way too expensive and popular, or some people find it just boring to play them.

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Toforto#2372 wrote:

You seriously overestimate what builds most people play

I don't think we underestimate what most people play, because public data is available for the most part, and most players are already playing at a higher level of optimization than you seem to assume. If you look at PoE Ninja, which reflects a decent chunk of existing characters, you quickly notice that most characters are already significantly more optimized than yours, and that's true across basically all listed builds there, not just the handful of exclusive meta or most popular builds.

So the only one underestimating things here is you.

Most players DO NOT run around in endgame with 16k EHP only while a guard ability is active, meaning the actual baseline numbers are even lower, with a 8k max phys hit and 7.7k max chaos hit. That is the kind of survivability people often already reach after campaign or early mapping, not something that holds up as an endgame benchmark for endgame content.

What you're describing is not the average player experience. It's closer to a below average player setup, and content SHOULD NOT be balanced around such a low level of effort and investment. Endgame balance cannot realistically be built around characters that are barely engaging with optimization while expecting endgame outcomes

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Toforto#2372 wrote:

Because those builds are either way too expensive and popular, or some people find it just boring to play them.

There's no particularly convincing argument that things are simply too expensive, because you DO NOT need to play whatever the current popular build is in order to have an optimized and well performing character.

16k EHP, especially when that number already assumes a guard skill is active, simply has no business being presented as endgame survivability. That is not a stretch of what the game demands, that is a character that is not built to the level the content expects. Calling that an economy or content issue does not really hold up when it is fundamentally a gearing and optimization issue.

At that point the responsibility is pretty clear. If the character is not scaled appropriately for endgame content, the problem is not the content being unreasonable, it is the build not being ready for it.

There are plenty of viable and affordable paths to strong characters across different archetypes and budgets. You DO NOT need the highest premium gear or whatever the current popular build is to reach a competent endgame baseline. So when those options exist but the solution becomes investing into carries and having others handle playing the game for you instead of addressing the primary source of difficulty, which is the build itself, the affordability argument loses a lot of weight.

Which brings us back to the same conclusion.

Content SHOULD NOT be balanced around unoptimized, low effort builds from players who cut corners across gearing and progression, skip meaningful optimization, and then still try to frame the resulting shortcomings as a balance issue.

Content also SHOULD NOT be balanced around the below average player who consistently misattributes build weaknesses to system design rather than recognizing their own role in the outcome.

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Scarletsword#4354 wrote:

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Toforto#2372 wrote:

but here in SC Trade we play with negative chaos res and randomly flamedash into a pack and die. That's the experience of the average player.

It's pretty much only you who does that.

This. Chaos resistance hasn't been optional since Betrayal league, and literally every single person I know understands that.