THE REAL ISSUE WITH SUPPORT GEMS THAT YOU KNEW ABOUT ALREADY...

How did you guys miss the issue with support gems AGAIN when you yourselves pointed it out YEARS AGO... I just DON'T UNDERSTAND.

The problem with people using the same support gems is that those specific support gems SCALE THE DAMAGE DIRECTLY AND IMENSELY (MORE MULTIPLIERS ESPECIALLY)... SO OF COURSE THEY WILL BE USED ALL THE TIME.

THE WAY YOU SOLVE IT IS THAT YOU ELIMINATE HUGE DAMAGE SCALING THROUGH SUPPORT GEMS. YOU KNEW THIS... YOU PRESENTED THIS ON A PANNEL YEARS AGO ON EXILE CON. COME ON....

YOU CAN SEE IT OVER HERE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yP7XhyQNG18



I've talked about this before in this thread...

https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/3689783

at 25:50 you can see how the GGG guy there clearly states "Support gems, we've taken them away from just being damage boosts, and put them more about customizing the skill"

YES EXACTLY... SO WHY AREN'T YOU DOING THIS?!?!?!

Not to mention that if you would've kept following those ideas you presented YEARS AGO.... you would've also had an easier time balancing everything since a huge scaling variable would've been eliminated by not having MORE multipliers on supports.... and then you could've focused on making exclusively really awesome support gems that change the way skills play or function and whatnot.

The problem is how do you make it feel like an upgrade without it doing more damage somehow?

Like wildshards in the current game. It's very cool, but I really use it on my sorceress because it doesn't actually improve my character since I don't get myself surrounded. If every support was like that, then getting supports wouldn't feel like upgrades.

Yeah this might wind up being a problem with the unlocking of supports for all skills.
Maybe add conditions onto some/all of these support gems that would make them too hard to use more than 2 together.

"

Ashgan9#6435 wrote:

Yeah this might wind up being a problem with the unlocking of supports for all skills.
Maybe add conditions onto some/all of these support gems that would make them too hard to use more than 2 together.

They actually mentioned in one of the interviews that they've got the concept of groups they can play with. So they may be able to have multiple supports that add multiple projectiles in different ways, but be in the same group so you'd only be able to use one support from that group on a single skill.

Its because the "Supports give no direct damage" is entirely theoretical. When I heard the idea I really liked the sound of it too. However since then it doesn't seem to be possible in practice. Unless you rework the entire system into something that looks kinda like D3. I don't want that.

But even without damage boosts on supports, supports will affect DPS.
Attack speed technically isn't a direct damage boost. But it boosts damage anyways. Do we remove all speed effects to keep in line with that vision? Or do all support gems now need attack speed now?
You can make similar arguments for nearly every single support gem effect.

Without any damage boosting, then you could end up with a much worse problem. Lets just not use support gems at all because they just increase the mana cost. Now I can put less points into mana, and put that into damage instead. I kinda hate that.


I was a bit disappointed too on PoE2 launch for the same reason. On some reflection, and actually putting some time into it, it wasn't that bad. The 1 limit looked good enough for me. I'm glad they experimented with it. The grouping system they have now seems like the ideal solution. Maybe they'll figure out something better later.

You either need next to no limitations (PoE) or to be put on rails (Diablo/Epoch). That includes limitations on design space. Like not including damage modifiers. Both systems have their pros and cons.

"

Lugonu#1626 wrote:

Its because the "Supports give no direct damage" is entirely theoretical. When I heard the idea I really liked the sound of it too. However since then it doesn't seem to be possible in practice. Unless you rework the entire system into something that looks kinda like D3. I don't want that.

But even without damage boosts on supports, supports will affect DPS.
Attack speed technically isn't a direct damage boost. But it boosts damage anyways. Do we remove all speed effects to keep in line with that vision? Or do all support gems now need attack speed now?
You can make similar arguments for nearly every single support gem effect.

Without any damage boosting, then you could end up with a much worse problem. Lets just not use support gems at all because they just increase the mana cost. Now I can put less points into mana, and put that into damage instead. I kinda hate that.


I was a bit disappointed too on PoE2 launch for the same reason. On some reflection, and actually putting some time into it, it wasn't that bad. The 1 limit looked good enough for me. I'm glad they experimented with it. The grouping system they have now seems like the ideal solution. Maybe they'll figure out something better later.

You either need next to no limitations (PoE) or to be put on rails (Diablo/Epoch). That includes limitations on design space. Like not including damage modifiers. Both systems have their pros and cons.

I think there is a good middle ground to be found but like anything it will take effort and creativity.

"

Lugonu#1626 wrote:

Its because the "Supports give no direct damage" is entirely theoretical. When I heard the idea I really liked the sound of it too. However since then it doesn't seem to be possible in practice. Unless you rework the entire system into something that looks kinda like D3. I don't want that.

But even without damage boosts on supports, supports will affect DPS.
Attack speed technically isn't a direct damage boost. But it boosts damage anyways. Do we remove all speed effects to keep in line with that vision? Or do all support gems now need attack speed now?
You can make similar arguments for nearly every single support gem effect.

Without any damage boosting, then you could end up with a much worse problem. Lets just not use support gems at all because they just increase the mana cost. Now I can put less points into mana, and put that into damage instead. I kinda hate that.


I was a bit disappointed too on PoE2 launch for the same reason. On some reflection, and actually putting some time into it, it wasn't that bad. The 1 limit looked good enough for me. I'm glad they experimented with it. The grouping system they have now seems like the ideal solution. Maybe they'll figure out something better later.

You either need next to no limitations (PoE) or to be put on rails (Diablo/Epoch). That includes limitations on design space. Like not including damage modifiers. Both systems have their pros and cons.

I don't think it would really look like D3's system, the key difference being that there's no layering to ability changes in D3 since it's meant to be super casual and easy to understand I suppose, as far as I remember at least. But PoE would still have the layering of the gem system which is what would make it super exciting to combine different skill changing supports together.

Attack speed is definitely something I would put under the "damage boosts" category but I understand what you are trying to say there... even an effect that mentions no numerical value at all could potentially be a damage boost, right? But I think that is why they mentioned "most supports give no direct damage" .... what they were thinking, probably, was that supports that needed a boost to get "in line" with others would receive an additional damage boost component to them or in some cases a damage penalty alongside the effect that modifies how the skill functions.

And they are already kind of doing this for some support gems... like scattershot for example! aside from the skill function change, it also has numerical values to balance said effect. (less damage and less attack speed)

I don't think they mentioned this themselves but the reason I did mention the "more multipliers" part was specifically because these are the most impactful damage scaling elements that make those supports that have them a "must" pick for skills to be viable. Beyond the damage boosts argument... a really huge issue here is also the MAGNITUDE of said damage boosts. The difference between a skill with more multipliers supports attached to it and one without is night and day... but if you do the same comparison with just "increased damage" supports .. it is nowhere near as impactful.