950 points
PVP Supporter Forum Title
PVP Portrait frame
All PVP Supporter Pack funds collected will be directed toward fixing PVP in this game globally - for Temp Leagues and for Standard.
With the introduction of the pvp supporter pack, all existing skills and new skills introduced to the game will be assigned T values.
July 12th update:
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Okay! Chris responded again and I have his blessing to share the following information with the community.
This is a direct copy/paste from Chris during our convo:
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I spoke to the balance guys about the T values and they agree with the importance of it. We may be able to include an update of these into 2.4.0, though that entirely depends when various developers finish with their part of the upcoming content. I think that including correct T values for new skills is a must for the future.
This is great news for 4 reasons:
-This is the first acknowledgment I've seen of GGG addressing skills not going through the pvp damage reduction formula (No T Value).
-All skills will be assigned T values, as early as 2.4, but as he mentioned it depends on how everything else is going. I know this isn't a guaranteed timeframe, but it is them agreeing they need to be fixed sooner rather than later and are showing they are going to do something about it.
- All New skills introduced will have T values.
- We do not need to purchase anything in order for the T values to be addressed! They are handing this on their own, like many agreed should be the case anyway.
I'm really happy with the outcome so far!!!
So what about the PVP supporter packs?
In the immediate future, it seems unlikely, but he admitted (and we knew from the start anyway) that this will take time. This is not a definitive "No". He still likes the idea, and will continue to bring it up with the team when the opportunity arises to discuss it and/or make changes. I have asked him if they need any input from the community in the future to please reach out, and we'd be more than happy to help in a harmonious manner that can benefit everyone.
For people just now reading this thread and/or haven't posted here yet, please post if a PVP supporter pack is something that interests you. We should continue to try and gather concrete numbers for GGG because this matters!
For everyone that has already posted and shown support, a sincere and deep thanks for helping. Judging by the T value discussion, I think we're finally starting to make some waves, and we just need to work together in order to continue.
If there are any updates I will come here and post!
Thanks everyone for being involved! PVP in this game has great promise and we need to all work together to help it thrive.
-Ahfack
July 10th Update:
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Chris responded!
Chris really liked the idea of a PVP supporter Pack, and this idea has never been discussed before! He wants PVP fixed, and will go to the team with it even if it might prove to be challenging.
I am hopeful because this is the best response we've seen yet. Please know that I am still very much a realist - this is no guarantee, but it's also not a definitive "No". I'm really glad he liked the idea, and I'm relieved to know it has not been discussed previously.
If you haven't posted in this thread yet and feel like this is something you would support PLEASE POST! We need the numbers, and this thread is not yet complete.
Let's all try to be hopeful, but also realistic :)
PVP is constantly evolving, fun, and most importantly, always a challenge. It's a shame it isn't really cared for by GGG. On that note, I am 100% in on this idea.
Original Post
Hey guys, I know I've already talked to a few of you about this idea and after getting some feedback I wanted to share an idea I had. The inspiration of the idea came from Icedeal's pretty air-tight logic of:
The only way to get sh*t done in this game is to pay for it, like that guy who paid for Cloak of Flame alt art. I already mentioned that, but got flamed to oblivion because that is something devs should do by themselves. But guess what... They will never do it.
Whether you like it or not, he's right, and we need to accept that. If some guy could pay real $$$ to get matching mtx for heatshiver/cloak of flame that only a select few people could even enjoy, then we should be able to pay $$$ to make this game better.
So we need to talk about what to do next. Give up? Bicker at each other over the internet? Play Vortex/LA/EA/other bullshit new skills forever? I'm not fond of any of those ideas really. If the game stays the way it is, I'm not buying any more supporter packs unless there is one that can really give us what we want, and I don't think I'm alone here.
Here's what I'd like to propose to GGG:
"
PVP Supporter Pack
Cost: $100
What you get:
950 points
PVP Supporter Forum Title
PVP Portrait frame
All PVP Supporter Pack funds collected will be directed toward fixing PVP in this game globally - for Temp Leagues and for Standard.
No exclusive MTX's for them to work on, but instead just focus on the game mechanics. Also with the introduction of the pvp supporter pack, all new skills introduced to the game will be introduced with T values.
This way, the 100% PVE crowd that isn't fond of PVP shouldn't be able to complain, "DON'T FIX PVP, FIX THE LAB!!! ENDGAME!!! FIX YOUR SERVERS!!!" etc... because these funds from minute 1 were raised solely for the purpose of fixing PVP. I know there are some endgame updates coming, but let's face it, PVP is the true endgame because of how it is constantly changing and progressing with each update and as new skills get introduced.
Please let me know if this is something you would get, and let's try to keep conversation positive and productive. Whether we like it or not, this is on us guys.
What to fix first?
Spoiler
This is for another discussion, but the first few things they can get started with are covered in RunawayFixer's post here, that I think all of us can agree he pretty much nailed:
Pvp damage reduction is needed because players can do way too much damage. I think ggg is correct that a linear reduction would be bad because of the huge disparity in dps numbers, but I suspect that the current implementation is worse than a linear reduction would have been.
The pvp damage formula benefits "shotgunning" skills, where the actual number of hits per second has no/less relation with the T value anymore. It seems like only skills that exploit this are still viable in pvp: ice storm, fire storm, glacial cascade, explosive arrow/lightning arrow wall spam, blast rain, bladefall, blade vortex, vortex, coc/mjolner, mines/traps, tempest shield, cws/cwdt & exploding skulls. I can't remember the last time I saw a budget hld pvp build that didn't revolve around one of the skills on this list.
Tornado shot and molten strike also hit many times per execution. But those received -% nerfs long ago because they proved too good.
My ideal solution: base the T value of a hit on the interval* from that hit to the previous hit, irrelevant of what skill was used to deal the damage.
One single formula for everything. Then balance the skills that become to dominant (flicker strike would be back for instance) by linear nerfs.
* edit: a moving average would have to be used, based on the number of hits in a fixed interval, or the time needed to hit a fixed number of times. Only using the interval between the last 2 hits, would be very exploitable.
Example: Two coc dischargers with tempest shield attacking eachother:
The hit from cyclone, the discharges, the hits from blade vortex, the reflect hits from tempest shield, ... All of those make up the combined dps, lump them all together by doing the T value calculation based on the hits landing on the defender. This would reduce the damage in the same manner as the damage of for example heavy strike would have gotten reduced.
As opposed to how it is now: the cyclone gets it's damage reduced in the same way as heavy strike, while with coc discharge+vortex+tempest shield there is absolutely no relation anymore between the T value and the actual number of hits per second.
2) The "no, your toolset does not work" tools
It's basically the same issue as with map mods, where certain mods don't make a map harder to do for specific builds, they make it impossible. In pvp the same all or nothing design from ggg makes most matches onesided.
A build that has heavily invested into block or dodge, fighting an explosive arrow wall spammer, well that's a build with a lot of wasted points and gear choices. A build relying on life leech as active defence, fighting a bloodless character, again wasted stats. The list goes on.
This leads to cookiecuttering, where powerplayers will flock to the same few skills.
Offensive skills that ignore the opponents defensive toolset as much as possible. Defensive skills that make the offensive toolsets of the expected opponents unusable.
Once there are only players left using offensive skills that ignore defensive toolsets, the only defense that matters is stacking hitpoints+regen.
3) Chaos damage in tempory league pvp
This might be a bit of a pet peeve of me: since warbands, if you want to pvp in tempory leagues, you have to be able to deal with chaos damage. But most players are playing life based builds, and most of those have -60% chaos resistance. If pvp is to become more popular, it needs to be accessible for more kinds of builds. The same is true for -resist stacking debuffs. I find EE multicurse to be worse in temp league than in standard, since overcapping is much harder.
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I've been wanting to get into PVP forever, and I'm making *small* strides to pick up gear here and there (could take a while). Would love to see the PVP scene grow, as I figure once I finally get 100, that'll be the natural direction that I want to take the game.
If this is made, I'd like to have certain guarantees tho.
They'd have to commit to "at least" giving pvp dmg reduction to new skills every time they are introduced. I don't mind founding the improvement of the pvp part of the game but at the same time I don't want the pvp community beeing taken hostage in a near future with something like "This skill is broken, well pay us to fix it". This could lead to a lot of abuse.
Spoiler
Please fix the english mistakes in my quoted post, it burn my eyes to read it again. I should double check what i'm typing more often even if i'm not a native english speaker ^^
You probably need 1000-1500 dollars collected to get a staff to work on pvp for a month.
You would need 10-15 people to pay 100 dollars every 3 month for balance.
I don t know, seem to me you gonna get yourself hostage every 3 month to give GGG money in order to work on pvp. If the amount is not enough? You pay for nothing.
Forum pvp
Last edited by lolozori on Jul 6, 2016, 7:50:29 PM
950pts are still included. Just like with normal supporter packs, 50less than just buying them straight up. Only no art, tshirt, music, mtx's to consume their time with - only devoting funded time to fix pvp.
I think there would be supporters from both temp and permanent leagues, this is important since a good portion of the playerbase doesn't even play standard. I think if we did this, we wouldn't have to worry about any quota because more people than we think would get it.
🎆🎆 www.youtube.com/c/Ahfack
🎆🎆 NEW #1 LLRF Helm -> 30% MORE|25CON|25BURN|-12fire|352es
🎆🎆 #1 Phys/Impale Leg 70% Multi Amulet + #1 Phys Rings!
🎆🎆 ^^Free 7L Fortify Cyclone!
🎆🎆 https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/534134
They might consider it, only if this get upvoted enough on reddit and there is enough people saying they would pay.
On the official forum
The problem are all those morons who will come to vomit "PVE POE" at soon you will write anything pvp related on a thread , making GGG shitscared it would be waste of time.
So if you want to popularize the idea, better go on reddit.
