[Suggestion] Engaging more people to PvP
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As was stated recently in a GGG post the pvp community is growing but it has not reached the potential that GGG sees it to be, and the PvP community can probably agree with this statement. I have read many discussions about starting in PvP gearing, and about the metas. Much of the discussion has always been about the gear barrier to enter into PvP and I believe that thought process is misguided.
Top end PvP gear is hard to get, and there is no issue with that; atleast in the style of game POE is. There is no incentive to play PvP and that will take many interest away from players who are curious but need the extra nudge to try. The support for high end play is great, but there is no core demographic. A player should be able to go into PvP without reading any forums, get a reasonable que speed and within a few games be matched with a similar skilled players. If this is not true it will sour the experience of any new player and they will need a lot of motivation or convincing to try this again. The easiest way to get people into PvP is always rewards, this is not maybe the best solution for GGG but it is going to be a solution I am proposing. Rewards for top tier play does not solve this problem, because there can only be a small subset of players that achieve top tier by definition. Rewards have to be attainable by everyone. This means not linking rewards to success. I know the immediate response of not linking PvP reward to success can be tasteless, and as a competitive person I understand those view points. You can roll and run the hardest 79 map in PoE, this does not mean you will get the best rewards. PvP needs a similar method, it should not be lucrative but there has to be a reward in relationship to time. My first draft solution
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Gladiators Spoil - unique strongbox. Create a lockbox that is ilvl36 gear and cannot roll items above level 28.
After completing X matches a box is spawned in the arena and loot randomly shared amungst all players. There is a limit to the amount of lockboxes per period of time. Note this should NEVER be optimal farming or even close to PvE farming rates, but just something so that a player can feel rewarded and that they are not wasting their time. If I die in hardcore I still have everything in my stash, so though I lost time, I still had some form of gain or change and PvP needs to reflect this. Thank you for your time and consideration. Please show constructive chat in this thread! Last edited by ProjectPT on Mar 12, 2015, 8:41:00 PM
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-reserve-
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To legitimately do well in PvP's current state you have to invest time in PvE. Without rewards that apply to PvE, it's highly unlikely there will ever be an increase of interest in PvP. Currently there aren't even enough players to support a serious PvP season. GGG was quick to release PvP season 2 and compound the problem by increasing the amount of team only and high level events further excluding the majority from even more events than season 1, brilliant. They seem to be ok with creating alt art items to give out to the same handful of people that are willing to spend 2ex to multi mod every rare piece of gear they wear. The last 3v3 event had a whopping 11 teams, that's a failure. I'm sorry but I expected more from the people that created PoE. You created a game that's not pay to win, but added PvP that's entirely pay to win? There should be no surprise why only 30 people care enough about PvP to enter the last event. Its pretty obvious from the history of racing, if it's not PvE then it's not priority for GGG.
There needs to be some mechanics implemented to bring PvP into the core PvE game since we can be almost assured that rewards are out of the question. Buy the ticket, take the ride. Last edited by p0t on Mar 12, 2015, 2:52:59 AM
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The reward in PvP is to beat another player. As far as rewards go, I think this is enough to keep people playing PvP.
In regards to rewards for entering PvP I would say they have already tried and it failed. They added Leo and people want to join PvP just to complete the his missions. You often hear from the other playing in the beginning of the match "Just need one kill for leo, please". They don't even attempt to play PvP and it is no fun playing against those players. Your idea sounds nice but I don't think it will change anything. You can already farm for gear effectively in PVE and poe.trade makes trading for any item a breeze if you want to trade. I don't think acquiring the gear is the problem but I could be wrong. For your idea to work though, should this strongbox not be readily available for anyone if it's goal is to bring people to PVP? I feel it is a few things. First, people have a preconceived notion that PvP does not belong in an ARPG. Secondly, people don't like to feel that they/their character suck, naturally. Some try out PvP but quit as soon as they lose. Thirdly, there is no PvP mode which is solely based on skill. This ties in with number two in that even if you do suck you can still blame it on that your gear suck and that it is fundamentally unfair. This isn't really true but the reality is going to be how people perceive it here. If there was a PvP mode where you can only use items from a predefined set of items you would be able to get a real sense of how many are interested in PvP. This probably wont happen but it would be nice to see, if only as an experiment. | |
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It is a common error that doing well is the key factor to interest people into PvP. In a game that has a 1:1 ratio of players against eachother regardless of how large or small the pool, 50% of the players will win and 50% will lose. If all players had equal gear and skill, by definition only 50% can succeed. Players do not need to do well to enjoy PvP, they must be able to have fun. If the player pool was large enough that poorly geared players could be matched quickly against poorly geared players that would work to solve this problem. Giving out general rewards would make this a more realistic possibility.
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The separation of PvP and PvE in the current form is great. A player who wants PvE like POE has offered should never feel that PvP is manditory. It should have incentives but nothing beyond that. Making PvP part of the core experience of PoE will just piss people off and turn them more off of the PvP or general development plans of GGG.
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Based on player participation it clearly is not.
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Leo had the spark of a good idea that seemed toned down to not annoy any players. Players who want his decorations find Leo annoying, and the multi mod for Leo where he would be valuable is as GGG stated too hard to obtain in the current form.
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The issue is not the effectiveness of farming gear, it does not need to improve. The issue is that if I PvP for 200hours straight, my character will not change nor anything to do with my account. As I stated PvE should be the most time effective way to create optimal PvP characters, but as it stands PvP is a waste of time, and I say this as a person who is wanting to PvP.
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The chest should spawn randomly for players (capped spawn rate based on a timer), thus making it available for everyone. Maybe I was not clear in my first explination.
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I completely agree with these points. The first point is only going to change by an ARPG with PvP properly implemented, which GGG has the potential to do. Second is absolutely correct, within a few games a player needs to atleast win something or get a reward for playing. If you had enough players at the same time you would get a similar skilled player to que and problem solved. But right now the game isnt at that point, and getting this strongbox reward might be the right solution to the current problem. To the third point, an ARPG by definition will never be pure skill but some form of premade character tournament throughout a Season could acheive that, but that is another discussion all together.
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I have read your suggestion again but now I am unsure of what it is you are suggesting.
Do you mean that this strong box should be part of the current unique strong boxes and so should also have the same chance to spawn? Or, do you mean for this strong box to be part of a PvP tournament where all players get to open it at the end of the tournament? Or do you mean per PvP match? | |
" Well the exact spawn rate is something for GGG to decide on what they feel fits their model of loot and progression as well as what the box could potentially obtain. But it should be able to spawn after a few matches; win or lose, to make a character feel they are progressing. Though it should not spawn often enough or with enough loot to be the optimal way to farm or create an imbalance of currency. They would spawn in any type of non Event matches. Would be complicated and problematic to spawn during an event. Could also add it to the collection of world strongboxes. Just has to be implemented carefully so that it isnt abusable from a farming perspective. -edit for spelling Last edited by ProjectPT on Mar 13, 2015, 12:51:28 PM
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" This makes a lot more sense that what I initially thought you were suggesting. My fault. This, I do agree with. Good suggestion! | |
" While it's true a player doesn't need to win to enjoy PvP there is nothing fun when you're losing a gear check and your hits do a fraction of someones health and they 3 shot you to death. It's frustratingly painful. 50% will win and 50% will lose, except you look at season 2 rankings where first place has 1800 points and 100th has 100 points. Less than 50% are winning almost all the time currently, and it's no fun if you cant pass the gear check. The player pool will never get large enough because right now PvP itself simply isn't fun and that's obviously a majority opinion. Out of the thousands and thousands of people that play PvE, less than 50 will join a ranked event. To me that speaks louder than anything. The PvP system in general is horribly boring and one dimesonal. There are only really 3 events DM/TDM, CTF, and FFA. CTF isn't even an option this season because realistically they might not be able to find 2 6-man teams in the current state. FFA is nice since its not DM/TDM but its fully bugged and they decided to only have 3 events, with one being high level. So the entirety of the season is one event, where you only need one character or 2 if you do HLD. Giving out general rewards, or bribing people is not GGG's style. They rely on MTX so just giving out something that they need to sell to continue developing the game doesn't make a lot of sense. So many more people would be upset if they felt forced to PvP for general rewards than the handful of people that are interested in PvP and want the population to increase. While it would be nice to have more people PvPing and have more rewards it doesn't seem like it will out weigh the problems caused. Also any new feature like a mount for example or custom overlay is just one less thing they'll be able to sell. How can you realistically consider rewards that make PvP easier when to be competitive you need 2 exalts per slot for multi-mod on already good rare gear or valuable corruptions on a lot of uniques that may have high value in PvE also? Are you seriously proposing a chest for PvP that drops 6 links in sarn arena randomly that people could use bots to farm 24/7? Giving people a chest in the arena means they're already PvPing in the arena and already had to gear initially. Nobody will, because nobody wants to PvP, even if you're periodically given gear. This free gear can't be top tier because that would be broken so really it offers zero incentive for people to try PvP and almost zero incentive for people to continue. Between farming PvE or poe.trade it's already far too easy to gear a PvP character so you can't consider this as incentive or some kind of solution when there is no problem. You would have to give every player access to all possible items for PvP. If they did this PvP might see a healthier population like racing, but I sincerely doubt it because of how awful the DM-only system is. " Incentivizing people with real rewards will upset the majority and doesn't seem feasible. Forcing PvP into the game with Leo and his daily missions failed. GGG really needs to raise the bar to get PvP interest to go anywhere. We were teased with custom leagues a player could purchase and set the rules as well as cut throat, but those are just a distant memory. Any addition of mechanics that try to draw people to the currently awful state of PvP seems destined to fail. Im not expecting them to add MOBA level PvP to the game but there needs to be something more than the current gearcheck deathmatch before anything else is attempted. They were able to add Atziri and Masters, which are part of the core game but by no means manditory. Atziri and Masters are not exactly the definition of fun but are rewarding and offer diversity in how you spend your time playing. PvP is not fun and is not rewarding so it shouldn't be added to the game right now. I do feel there are possibilities to mesh PvP into PvE at some point. People are willing to grind master missions so anything is possible. It just seems like anything needed to fix PvP would require too much real work and divert too much attention from PvE. Realistically too few people want that, I sure don't. Buy the ticket, take the ride. Last edited by p0t on Mar 14, 2015, 1:43:47 AM
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Gear check is only an issue because there is a small PvP pool, with a finite number and long ques the only people who have interest are the people who play at the higher tiers of competition, this is the exact problem that we are trying to fix. A theoretically unlimited pool would have a player of similar gear and skill for your to spare against thus the gear becomes meaningless for having fun. Obviously this is not possible, so the question is getting enough people so that the gear check no longer exists and how to get them here. This is why I proposed this solution. "
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I think you misunderstood rewards, because I meant reward as in the similar rewards to killing normal dominus, the chest would essentially be the same thing, an explosion of random ilvl36 loot that maybe also didnt have items that required above level 28, nothing more. Apologize if I did not make that clear enough. About the bribing with MTX, you could argue that putting real money rewards, prizes and unique arts fits that definition, and they did do that. But personally though I think high tier player support is good, it is not what solves their current problem. "
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I specifically stated and opened up with, that being "competitive" is not what I was talking about, and also was part of the error of thinking that most people bring up with the issues of PvP. The issue is player base size, and improving that. Now how that is done, you can have many theories, but by definition only a tiny fraction of players will ever be competitive regardless of how many want to be.
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Once again, I think you misunderstood what I meant as a reward, not an MTX just loot.
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Comletely agree, why I even bother giving input and responding. Also clearifying anything that I might have not explained well enough and getting feedback on this idea.
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I agree, PvP is not rewarding, it is the exact opposite of it, and that is what I wanted to try to implement something small that allows players to feel their character is being progressed. As for the not fun part, the community is too small for me to properly assess that one. I am excited beyond belief of full PvP in this game, but the implementation steps have been a bit rocky. The effort is there, but seems there is a fundemental error in implementation.
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