LLD vs HLD balance

For those who don't know me, let me first introduce myself so you can see where I'm coming from. I am a HLD-er utilizing, what is considered one of the "more" broken PVP builds in existence - crit dagger/flicker evasion, block, dodge.

The current opinion of the community, at least my impression of it, from reading the PVP patch hype posts and replies to them is that HLD is unbalanced one shoot fest where those with half a brain and a wallet full of dollars, try to one shoot others similar to them. While LLD is a lot more balanced and revolves a lot more on creativity and player skill.

In view of recent developments I decided to give LLD a try. I acquired decent gear (spent on gear and gems about 30 ex - from what I read this is not a minor sum for a LLD char).

I am a LLD noob, and my primary goal in the begging was to find ways to survive long enough, and in the current gear/build state I am at
1160 life
28% chance to block attacks
29& chance to block spells
40% chance to dodge attacks
30% chance to dodge spells
elemental res all 75%
chaos res 26%
can not be frozen

from my nooby perspective this was respectable, albeit low on hp.

Yesterday I played and talked with several LLDers from [AMBUSH] clan whom, from my impression are near the top of LLD players - perhaps they are not but that can only strengthen my observations.

The crit dagger LLD guy was able to consistently one shoot me - he also told me there are very few LLDers he is not able to one shoot.
The FP caster was able to 2 shoot me while keeping me perma-chilled - he also informed me he considered me relatively tough to kill compared to other LLDers.
I read punctures are considered the most broken in LLD, so I know what I can expect vs a puncturer.

This is by no means a q&q thread, but rather I am a bit puzzled on the view of the community on HLD and LLD which I already posted in the begging.

Why is LLD considered more balanced then HLD? Is it just because the gear cap is lower, hence more people play it? The logic: If more people play it, it must be better, better = more balanced for PVP games, hence LLD is more balanced.

What is balance in PoE PVP in your opinion? Is there a way to achieve balance? Would you balance HLD with a presumption all have BiS gear, cutting pretty much 80% of the community short of HLD. What about LLD?

It is easier to get to a point where you start dealing high enough damage as well. You can make a char with way less than the 30ex you spent and still do great.

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andkamen wrote:

It is easier to get to a point where you start dealing high enough damage as well. You can make a char with way less than the 30ex you spent and still do great.

I am not sure what "do great" means. But to get 15 x q20% gems you need 10 ex-ish. I got the impression LLDers tend to corrupt uniques, just rolling the colors on a corrupted unique can take a few ex... etc

anyway, that is besides the question, but rather why does the majority of community feel there is much more balance in LLD than in HLD when pretty much the same mechanics are present: puncture bow will one shoot you, flicker will one shoot you, whirl too, casters will kill you in 1-3 shoots. I don't see the big difference in balance compared to HLD, even the top builds seem similar.

The difference is, everyone can play any build without needing to have 200+ exalted worth of gear to be competitive

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Shade444 wrote:

The difference is, everyone can play any build without needing to have 200+ exalted worth of gear to be competitive

and even 200 ex in HLD is a minor sum, many top PVPers have 3-5 200 ex items.

I completely agree with this, its one of the reasons I started to LLD since I really have not enough currency to invest in a 2nd HLDer, I don't want to sell my flicker to start a new one. And the flicker started to be boring tbh (I wish Slay was more these days so I can try to find a strategy to beat him, but other than that only shadow is interested in PVPing me - and he is on only on weekends).

Anyway the conclusion is that LLD is not balanced much better than HLD, it just has more people playing because of item accessibility.

Having done a lot of both HLD and LLD I'd say there's the same balance or even less in LLD. However, just as others have said, the barrier to entry is much much lower. You can outfit a good build for a lot cheaper.

Not being able to use the level 31 gems really limits build diversity, IMO. LLD is mostly a 1h sword, double ungil's (maybe not so much anymore?), puncture bow fest, with a few token casters from what I've seen.

I haven't been very active in LLD as of late though, so maybe I am off the mark somewhat. It used to have less diversity, when I used to play more before. That's one of the reasons I've shied away from it recently. Anyone correct me if I'm wrong please, if things have changed now.

If your playing or building your character to right click the opponent then yes it's possible to kill someone with 2-3 unavoided/unmitigated hits. That said if you watch any of the previous tournament finals people aren't just right clicking each other. Kiting, Angling, negotiating/clearing traps, using obstacles/cover, cursing, cleansing curses, pot management.

If you're just right clicking each other and seeing who dies first you guys kinda messed up along the ways. (disclaimer: If 2 players gear aren't close it will just be right click 5-0 stomps) Its hard to say without spectating some of your matches. If we can coordinate a time I can spectate your matches and play some games. You can also spectate my games to get a better sense.

As far as builds I would say the character you described is in the 80-85 ish percentile of tankiness. However manually avoiding damage and debuffing your opponent go a long ways to sustaining yourself.

Let me know when you'll be available. I'll add you in game now.

Edit: Regarding cost. You can spend 25c and have a playable Whirling Blades crit dagger char. You could also spend 300+ exs on perfectly crafted caster gear and another 45 or quality gems so cost varies. The builds that aren't all in on 2-3 shotting people are generally speaking more expensive/harder/impossible to gear and as a result rare.

Edit: Regarding balance. GGG hasn't previously balanced PVP. So if people are approaching PVP with the perspective of why ins't this perfectly balanced? Then they are missing the point that it wasn't balanced previously BUT that they are taking steps to in the future starting with 1.3 to make a more "balanced experience. Citing Chris' post here.

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Shade444 wrote:

The difference is, everyone can play any build without needing to have 200+ exalted worth of gear to be competitive

Some builds can be competetive with way less cost in HLD, where others needs way more. How it works, sadly(It's not most often the most expensive that's the best, i.e 2handers costs alot)

The main difference is clearly the work required to achieve balance. Life changes hurt LLD hp but our damage stayed high. This is why 1.3.0 had new damage scaling which lowers every1s dps but especially crit builds whose high dmg values get reduced for more.

Also, chill and freeze duration is getting reduced. It was easy to freeze or chill without building for it (like 1h sword using hatred and getting a freeze off). Temp chains was also making the duration incredible. Now if you want to perma chill, you have to spec your build for it.

Physical and ele dmg are also now scaled seperately so there should be less disparity.

Every LLD gem has been looked at and tweaked further after new scaling if needed (this would of taken forever for HLD)[the scaling is at low levels, HLD wont be affected by gem nerfs unless players were specifically complaining about that same gem]

(HLD is also getting some new dmg scaling accross the board, reducing crit a lot, but no specific gems could be looked at in time)

Can you elaborate at all at the big changes? How is melee going to compare to casters? Are traps going to become visible? What's happening with puncture and crit?