Cleave as a race skill

Groundslam was nerfed to the point of almost being a bad skill in closed beta, and it had nowhere near the popularity that cleave does in racing and end game. I realize GS had huge popularity end game in CB, but that was a function of less brain power working on builds compared to OB.



So I have to ask, why hasn't this skill been adjusted? buffing GS to 80% damage vs 70% is not going to balance for how incredibly strong Cleave ends up being.

1. You can use ANY weapon with ANY damage roll.
2. Attacks faster, in PoE Attack\Cast speed is the best stat you can get for any spec\build.
3. Cleave is so good that 5\6 classes would use cleave to set their best possible race records.
3a. The only reason Leap ends up being better is that it couples travel + equivalent damage as cleave\attack speed (as a Duelist). I am 100% certain that with an updated tree, Marauder would use cleave and Leap Slam to travel.

I honestly think that Cleave should be nerfed, however, I don't really see how they could nerf Cleave without seriously gimping classes that really have no other viable alternatives.

If say they nerfed Cleave, how would any other class compete with leap slam duelist? Bow ranger is very weak outside of descent, so I think if they nerfed cleave they would have to buff other skills in response.

I recently had a conversation with boof on the forums and we basically both agreed that bow ranger is just not viable in solo races, if we want rangers to go RoA in solo races instead of cleave they would have to fix some of the very severe issues with bows first.

With that said, I think cleave is the only reason classes seem somewhat balanced, but it's an illusion, "everyone uses cleave therefore the game is balanced". This is what GGG seems to think, but it would be the equivalent of Blizzard giving all 3 races in Starcraft the exact same units with different names, sure the game would be "balanced" but it would be a lie to claim that there are 3 different races in the game. Similarly, in races you only really have 1 class and that class is "cleave".

I mean I really tried bow ranger for a long time, it works in descent because you get a shit load of alchs and other currency to roll good bows, but outside of descent it is impossible to keep up with cleave because there simply aren't enough bows on the loot table to consistently find an upgrade.

Today I did my second solo race as cleave Templar and made 7th overall with no practise, I couldn't even dream to do that well with bow ranger in a solo race, cleave ranger is fine yes, but that again goes back to my earlier point, there only is 1 class in this game, that class is called "cleave".

I think the game as a whole needs alot of rebalancing, it's not just nerfing cleave, I also think other playstyles (like RoA) need to be buffed for solo races.

Reave its supposed to counter cleave with Claws/Daggers but still terribad at early levels even compared to gslam,sweep,whirling blades..anyway GGG still working on it.

offtopic: something doesnt match here Hardcore Race mods + Hardcore Runners = Casual Rewards??.

Oh, cleave, why you so strong?

Before starting, it should be mentioned that the problem with cleave only exists in dual wielding version of the skill, since two handed cleave is pretty close balance wise with sweep and groundslam, although is still better in my opinion because of faster attack speed and better attack "cone". What exactly makes DW cleave so overpowered in comparison to other AoE skills that may be used in races?

1) Large pool of weapons you can choose from. You can easily pick from 3 weapon classes (1h swords, 1h axes, rapiers), all weapons work good for you in any combination. Some other AoE attacks can also use 3 weapons (sweep) or even 4 (leap slam), but the effective racing builds usually cut down that choice to 1 or 2 weapon classes.

2) Faster attack speed than other AoE attacks. In PoE speed is one of the most important things for any character. Movement speed, cast speed, attack speed often determine the pace of the whole race for the player. Having higher attack speed means that you can kill monsters by first striking them and not getting any damage in return, or you can stun them with your cleave attacks faster than they can finish their swing at you.

3) Better AoE cone than other skills (IMHO). With cleave it's really easy to do sidestep-cleave attacks which minimize the amount of hits you take from monsters. With sweep you have to run into crowds to be efficient, same with leap slam. Ground slam has a nice AoE, but it requires running "away" from monsters so that they stand behind you in a narrow line. Since melee monsters in PoE have small attack range, they tend to group up before you in perfect pack sizes for cleave.

4) Advantages of dual wielding. Just by using two weapons you gain 10% more attack speed and 15% block chance. I can't stress enough how important it is to be able to block some attacks. It can be life saving during boss fights and provides a noticeable edge in farming zones. In case your character does not have any early attack speed nodes, the attack speed bonus from DW is very useful.

5) Damage from your gear (excluding weapons) is applied to each hand. This is why DW cleave can be viable even with shitty weapons. There are 4 item slots that can roll damage (gloves, 2 rings, amulet) + there are low level uniques that just make you character faceroll the content (sadimas, 1000 ribbons, meginords, fairgraves, foxshade, etc). Poor 2H users only get the bonus damage applied one time.


So what can be done to get DW cleave to the level of other racing skills? The obvious answer is to add a penalty to bonus damage from gear (50%) and/or further reduce damage effectiveness when dual wielding (from 40% to 50% or even 60%%) or set a restriction that you can only use weapons in pairs (you can use 2 axes, but you can't use axe + sword). In my opinion, that would be a poor decision, because it would lead to quality drop in results for a lot of classes (ranger, shadow, templar, duelist in EL and descent) and further widen the gap between leap slam users and other classes. Imagine you could get to 21 easily in a normal 1h race and now you can only get to 19? Wouldn't that feel kinda shitty? What about all the records that were set with the current version of cleave? Just forget them and move on? What i think should be done is a massive rework/buff to other racing skills. Let's go class by class:

Templar. This is where it all began. The passive tree is really good for AoE skills, has a lot of %ele damage nodes and you even get WED! Before muling cleave became a must, templars used to go with ground slam which is now nerfed to the ground. I think there is a possibilty to buff sweep and GS here by adding attack speed to the mace nodes, otherwise the mentioned AoE attacks are too slow in comparison to cleave. At the moment templar racing tree has ZERO attack speed nodes (same as mara. Yes, i don't count the single 4% node) and that is a major concern for races. But we can't have just normal attack speed nodes, since they would boost cleave even more. The nodes have to be weapon specific and these weapons can't be used with cleave.

Marauder. There is a pretty balanced choice between going cleave or sweep before switching to leap slam. Everything fine here.

Duelist. The only problem i see here is that cleave can't outperform leap slam in all vanilla races. But cleave is so much better in new races (Descent, Endless Ledge), that it evens out.

Ranger. The new ranger tree was like a gift for cleave users. Aspect of the Panther, SIRIOSLY!?!? To counter cleave here there needs to be a massive buff to bow users. The problem with bows is that you can only use bows for your ranged skills, so if you don't get a good bow when you need it, you're in trouble. I propose adding a second ranged weapon class - crossbows. They would have less attack speed but have more damage and/or have a buff to stun duration on enemies (like maces do). Quivers should also be buffed, so that their base damage increases with their itemlevel (something like 4-20 lightning damage on a ilvl 23 conductive quiver).

Shadow. Honestly have no idea what to do here. Maybe with the latest buff to the firetrap the old PA/FT and FP/FT builds may once again become viable with some changes in the tree. Reave was supposed to solve the problem, but since it only has 4 letters from cleave it's only 80% as good.

Witches. Unfortunately the current witch tree is weak for cleaving, come back later.


TL;DR
Don't nerf cleave, buff other things instead.

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cwu wrote:

big post

TL;DR
Don't nerf cleave, buff other things instead.

+1 on your entire post.

This was the argument of everyone who was a Groundslam guru in CB, and GGG went ahead with the double GS nerf, and further nerfed the perma stun end game build.

I'd love other skills to be balanced with cleave, but I see 50 skills sub par and 1 skill above par.

Good posts.

Id like to see buffs to underused / underperforming skills too, specifically early spell stats as they tend to be twice as expensive as melee skills for half the damage. Not sure what to do about leapslam being so far ahead of other skills in races; its been too good ever since it got that massive speed buff awhile back. Even goats feel somewhat op now because of that. Perhaps a minor to moderate speed nerf so that its no longer the games best early aoe attack that also happens to be faster and safer movement than running, and returns it to being a utility / engagement skill.

Ranger being unable to compete with bows is in large part due to the horrible gaps between start~shortbow and gate~composite bow. Crude bow + split arrow is literally worthless- i think pretty much every bow ranger either runs a mule or skips almost everything until shortbow now- while a shortbow outperforms a longbow with similar mods (thanks to offweapon damage and kiting ability), meaning theres generally no viable upgrade between ledge and act 2. Another issue is roa's massive mana cost combined with shortbows high attack speed; even with double medium manas, its impossible to sustain fire continuously, and if you end up stuck with small manas, every second shot will be normal attack. Quivers never improving is a problem as well.

Shadow and duelist cant really use bow builds at all, as their projectile trees are tiny and go nowhere. Damage is king in races and theres no room for a build that starts with minimal/weak damage nodes and needs to wander through a load of stat nodes before hitting another poor damage ring, which is exactly the position bow shadows and duelists are in atm.

Also relinking the previous cleave/race thread for good measure:

http://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/494141

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so that its no longer the games best early aoe attack that also happens to be faster and safer movement than running

Leap slam is one of the most desync prone skills in the races now, on par with whirling blades. A lot of deaths are caused by desynching while leapslamming, so it is no way safer than just running.

Im thinking narrow passages where you can use it to leap over monsters blocking your path, which would be dangerous when running due to how often that situation causes screen+ desyncs. But i agree leapslam is a desync monster itself if you get hit mid leap or try leaping out of surrounds etc. Still, no reason to let it dominate races if it can be helped. Id ultimately like all the available skills to be at least baseline competitive picks in races, which most of them arent atm.

In before cleave buff.

That's how GGG works with feedback.

Very good posts here.

I think everyone agrees that cleave is stronger than most (if not all) alternatives, but instead of nerfing cleave, other skills should be buffed to the same level as cleave.

I think cwu and Kotao both hit the nail in the head when talking about the lack of bow upgrades.

I can't stress this enough, a simple buff to RoA wouldn't solve the problem, what truly gimps bow users is the fact that you almost never find upgrades. So there is an inherent problem with the item progression for (bow) rangers that goes far beyond just the effectiveness of the skill they are using.

I see so many knowledgeable people in the racing scene who all bring up the same points, yet GGG never seems to respond to any of the feedback.

I think the whole point of a beta test is to fix obvious problems with the game but the fact that GGG really doesn't seem to care about these imbalances leaves my kind of worried. With full release and a release on steam we can all expect a massive influx of new players.

Some of these new players will be interested in doing races and I think they will be very disappointed to find out that, despite a several year - long beta test, the best GGG could come up with balance-wise was "cleave for everyone."

GGG can do so much better than that, I understand that GGG is still just an indie-developer with limited ressources, but they don't even seem to acknowledge the problem or respond to any of the feedback, so I think we are all right to be a little bit upset.