Constructive Feedback from in game "middle class"

I generally don't respond a ton to other threads but I'm so on the fence about POE 2 I decided to put some thoughts down in hopes these get read for themes by the devs if nothing else. This is long as if I was going to bother I felt it should be thorough. I will also say most of my feedback could be applied to POE 1 also so this isn't about me preferring POE 1 I just think POE 2 has some big misses right now (mixed with a bunch of good things).

I don't know how to classify myself as I don't have the time to be a "no lifer" as I have kids and a busy job but I'm also not what I would call a casual. I think I've put in 200-250 hours in 0.3 and I'm just shy of 1,000 in POE 2 total. I have played the last 4-5 leagues of POE 1 but never before then and I played an enormous amount of D2 as a kid (I was the no lifer in that game) and moved on to DAOC and WOW as I found MMOs more engaging at that stage of life.

This patch I have 3 characters in the low 90s plus my main I played which is a poison Pathfinder that I got to 96. The only one "meta" was a LA deadeye which I played the least. I died once on my pathfinder going from 95 to 96 and it was a 1 shot I have no idea what happened, all this was on 6 mod 36-45% delirious waystones. My only other near deaths were hard lock ups due to lag where I had to scramble to survive when the game caught up. I say all this to indicate I think I have enough "skill" I could get to 99 or 100 with interest in playing enough to do it.

Similarly I made enough currency to get decent tier gear. I'm miles from optimized for my builds (even my main) but I have probably 250-300 divine gear spread over my characters if I had to guess. I did get lucky this league to drop a unique glove that sold for 60 div in late week 1 or early week 2 which got me ahead of inflation for the first time ever as a working parent but ultimately inflation overtook my ability to upgrade my gear on my main (upgrades are 100 divs each now and that is a week or more of farming at my pace without a miracle jackpot drop).

There is a lot of things I really like but as a feedback forum I have focused on those that make me less likely to keep coming back (whether within a league or when the next league starts).

Death Penalty

I'm fine with there being a death penalty but I think it's all too much even though I don't die that often. Sometimes I've had a long work day and I want to put in 50% attention and grind some POE but losing experience is annoying (even with the omen). I also think no revives for 3 tablets is too strict, you lose 33% of your tablet value plus 17% of map mod dropping to 5 mod so simplistically half your juice is gone if you want to be a bit more relaxed playing, you've not made the content that much easier to lose that much value.

My first recommendation is scrap the xp penalty or if level 100 needs to be "no lifed" then have no xp penalty to 99 and make the last level for the "best POE players". I'll point out my sarcasm as I see the speed runners, the game breaking build creators, the deterministic crafting finding players the best players and level 100 to me is someone that had a decent build and enough time, not necessarily a good player.

My second recommendation is reduce the value lost of getting 2 portals. Make it so you can use 3 tables but they get a -10% modifier so you effectively lose about 25% of the value (one less map mod and a bit less from waystones) but honestly even 25% seems like a lot to me.

If you do both of the above then making everything harder is totally fine. I like hard content (see 1 shots section later though) but I don't want to never feel like I should try it as dying is so painful. Hardcore exists for those that want death to be massively meaningful.

Campaign and Character Balance

This may initially be an odd grouping but I want a game where I can't screw up in the first 30 seconds of a league by picking a class/ascendancy that is going to have to work double as hard to be half as good as the meta. I realize it's hard to balance and I have no issues having to try out different specs or even ascendancies within the class but I don't like that some characters simply can't get good enough where others get great trivially (yes I know its early access but this problem exists in POE 1) requiring you to reroll if you chose one of the weak classes.

The campaign is long but fine for me if I only have to do it once a league and I can make my character choice good enough to play through the end game. I can probably live with a league start and one additional character as my main after like tends to happen in POE 1 but honestly as someone with limited time that does want to reach ultra end game I'd rather play 1 character per league and not burn a few weeks making a league start that can't just respec to be that end game character (some classes that works fine but some feel like you just can't get there).

The campaign can be harder if harder doesn't equate to just more 1 shots (again see later) and I don't have to do it multiple times. This league I did it 5 times (I dropped the fifth character just after campaign so didn't note it above) because my planned main just capped out and couldn't clear fast enough to progress so I searched for a new main.

Difficulty

I hate 1 shot mechanics in general (extremely rare on some bosses I can tolerate but not as the only threat to death and inserting it all over) and on all 4 of my 90s characters I find the combat is trivial until I get 1 shot. Many of the 1 shots are unexplainable and some are boss mechanics.

I don't have a ton of answers on how to make it hard without 1 shots but they aren't fun. I played healer characters in MMOs so I'm very adept at prioritizing staying alive myself just marginally above keeping my tank alive (I can't keep him alive if I die first) but there was always strategy and time to recover from one mistake. I appreciate an ARPG is not the same as an MMO but I don't think you can draw out boss fights for minutes if one mistake equals death over that entire time.

In 0.1 I actually thought the Act 1 boss was a good fight on my first play through because I got cold res and I could survive all the attacks but the second would kill me. I died a lot to him still before they nerfed bosses but I felt it was tough but fair. I died yesterday to a boss that slammed me as his first attack and I think I was no where near where it should have hit me, I logged off for the day on my second map.

My recommendation is limit the one shot deaths (unless you are severely under geared, leveled or your build is terrible) but make the hard content a death by attrition or at least a 2 shot with some hope of reacting. This is probably very hard to do without the meta just being too easy but my only deaths in weeks are 1 shots and I do try to avoid pure glass cannon.

On combat pacing, please just ensure the rewards are commensurate with how you pace combat. I am totally fine with slower combat where I have to CC a mob or two to take down the healer then a dps then the tank or whatever but only if you don't make me do all that on white mobs that drop nothing ever. I'm fine with move fast and kill fast also (it's harder to make challenging I think) but the game generally feels not rewarding enough now except for the 1% with rarity bots and unlimited resources already so if you slow me down 50% and don't double or more the drops it's going to feel pretty bad.

Loot, Gear, Crafting and Progression

This could be a novel but I think it's a mess currently. I'll do my best to be constructive.

Uniques are generally useless and feel like a waste of development time. Unless you play 10 alts a league I don't even know why you want most of the uniques. Those that are good generally are too rare to acquire. My recommendation on uniques is make lots of them quite good and MORE attainable but as the tradeoff have more varied rolls. I'll use Hyrri's Ire from a prior league as an example that was something I really wanted for my build as it was acrobatics with only a 25% reduction to evasion if I recall correctly. It was relatively expensive but was borderline build defining for me. I'd much rather see the reduction to evasion be a wide range but the item drop a lot so if I really want it for my build getting a 50% reduction version is pretty easy (even in SSF) but getting the best version is very rare. This gives me ability to progress but also have something to chase. Allowing all items to drop from every difficulty of boss is a also a big win for me even if the percentages are low at low tiers (give people a chance to get what they want and make the chase getting the perfect rolls).

Ground loot feels terrible and I just stopped picking up rares. If nothing changes on it I think the only solution is items drop ID'd and the loot filters get way more robust to be able to asses if the gear is worth anything without having to look at it. My "upgrade crafting" comments below could also fix this. Once you get remotely into endgame you need such specific combinations of mods that the odds of picking something up that is useable is effectively zero (heck in the campaign I often barely change gear because getting more than 2 useful stats is uncommon).

Collecting crafting bases is also brutal as a somewhat casual. When you get to the point of needing an exceptional base for an end upgrade then you brick it and have to start from scratch it makes me want to quit. I know they made a conscious effort to avoid scouring orbs but it is not fun to collect tons of white and blues and pray for useful starting points (particularly mid league) only to brick it and have to start over. Combined with the comment on rares above the game that is about looting doesn't even seem like looting gear off the ground is worth your time (I already have a job in real life where I earn money over time and buy what I want, I don't want my entire gaming experience be waiting for exalts, chaos, annuls and divines to drop so I can save them up and buy items).

Crafting is much better this league but became way too expensive to get mid league items. I think I've played reasonably efficient and quite a lot for a working adult and I have dropped 1 perfect chaos, 4 perfect exalts, 1 omen of light plus I did tons of ritual to get 1 whittling and tons of essence to get 2 valuable corrupted essences (unfortunately I got the most expensive one the first map I tried farming essences so I thought they were common enough to bother trying for weeks). I have crafted some great gear but it's all from slowly farming annuls and divs to buy the actual crafting currency I need. My ideas here are make all the crafting items much more accessible with a bit more RNG on the craft and less ability to brick items or even have the rare crafting items get more common as the league progresses (this may be tough to balance) so that someone that has less play time can by the end of the league experience good crafting (it is fun if you can afford it) without taking away the rush from those that think competing is beating the economy early league. The latter strategy could potentially also help manage inflation for the average player at least for crafting items (it may accelerate inflation on other items though).

Add "harvest" crafts (I don't care if you do the full mechanic even though I like it in POE 1) whereby you can EASILY convert once resistance type to another and I'd like to see being able to also convert one attribute to another. The gear puzzle is tedious in POE 2 in that getting one upgrade often means you have to swap multiple pieces of gear because you have to realign resistances. I don't like the socket system as the fix for attributes/resistances versus the crafting bench but I can live with it if I have a way to convert fire res on my ring to lightning when I got an amazing pair of boots that lost lightning res and I'm over capped on fire. I noted above my main is not optimized at all but I've stopped even bothering looking for upgrades as the one upgrade is expensive on it's own but then also bricks my resistances and attributes so it's not worth bothering.

Figure out a way to "upgrade" craft that is not the path of least resistance but gives the average player ability by mid to late league to get high end gear without being totally RNG. My recommendation is a quest that you start by flagging the item the NPC will empower and you do some task (make it take me 10 maps if that is what balances it) but at the end I get to chaos slam one specific stat on the item with the ability to accept or decline the outcome then try again (once I have the right stat the same or different quest could upgrade an item tier). This is like being able to use a whittling (but on an already decent level stat) and undo it if the outcome sucks. I know the devs love the concept of bricking the item but for a huge portion of the player base that just means we settle on what we have and probably stop playing. For someone that plays a decent amount I don't see a huge issue in league play with them having awesome gear at the end of the league (they may actually play the next league if they feel like they could be successful). If items need to brick then leave that to the vaal orb which is how you get truly top tier items anyway.

One final recommendation in this section is integrate way more target farming options even with trade offs. If I need some whittling omens then allow me (don't use hyper rare tablets for this make it realistic for normal players) the ability to engage with an NPC for that mechanic and get blessed that I'm better at seeking out whittling omens but the trade off is I get less something else (maybe basic currency). This way if I want to craft I can forego divines dropping for a day but I can get a handful of whittling omens relatively quickly then move on to farming the next component I need for my craft. As noted above, I did tons of ritual and saw one whittling. It's just more efficient right now to work the job of building exalts, chaos, annuls, divs to buy what you actually need but it's not fun, it's like daily life not a game.

Right now as someone that has restricted (I wouldn't say low) play time it becomes really easy to feel like you've hit a wall on gear and progression so what is the point playing (even if you still somewhat enjoy playing your character). The problem is GGG is trying to make it so the streamers and people with ability to play 15 hours a day don't finish the league in 4 days and it means those with rational play times can't access so much of what is in the game. This seems like a terrible trade off to slow down those people from 4 days to 7 days (Fubgun is always going to blow through everything) when it makes it so a huge portion of the population can't touch the good stuff.

Rarity and Item Acquisition in General

This section will probably not be popular but in many ways I think it's the only fix to appease the ends of the spectrum.

GGG seems to take relatively polarizing positions on many decisions and I think it will hurt the games population base. I think they've got it totally wrong with SSF being framed as a challenge mode. I want to be clear, I don't want everything gifted to me (I played games where you had to /sit for minutes between fights to regain mana/hps to fight the next mob so I'm not against some grind) but I simply don't see the harm in having a SSF choice that has boosted drops so someone that can play a few hundred hours a league can access everything without having to race with inflation out of the gate in trade league. The only reason I've seen is that it messes with the standard league economy (I think this is somewhat true but also that economy eventually becomes a mess anyway given it can get influxes of currency from "currency printing leagues") but the easy fix to this is just have those characters disappear at the end of the league and not transfer to standard as your trade off.

Similarly, D2 eventually implemented the /players command to simulate grouping to improve loot so options along these lines may help those that don't have a set group and don't want to just have or be a follow bot. This may help the in game rich more than the middle class but I suspect I could carry a /players 3 or 4 but I'll never go searching for leachers.

My actual recommendation is more options in private leagues that are positives not just extra restrictions. I don't want pay to win where I can spend real life money to beat other players in a joint trade league but if I could pay GGG a modest fee per league to be able to say I want 150% stock IIR, no death penalty and more crafting currency drops I would do this in a heartbeat. I don't know if private league characters end up in standard league but again just turn that off if advantages are turned on. I may choose sometimes to turn on some of the additional challenge features as well but I personally don't enjoy "really hard to progress loot" to be the challenge.

GGG needs to make revenue and obviously they've been doing ok. I throw this out as an option as I have ability to pay for features (and will happily pay to make my experience more enjoyable if it doesn't make others less enjoyable which a private league doesn't) but outside of stash tabs that are a basic requirement I'm not motivated by MTX to improve my hideout or my characters appearance (I bought one MTX for a spell in POE 1 as I couldn't see the default option on screen very well). The cost of private leagues for 1 may need to be considered but this feels like it hurts no one and starts to address the polarizing decisions that exist right now.

The game has a lot of good features and direction but there are handful of things that I think just stop it from being great except for a pretty niche audience. I didn't comment on performance but please spend some time here as my computers are pretty decent and the game can run pretty badly at times (I'm giving slack for early access but we're a year in almost).

I consider myself in the same bucket of PoE2 players. I get to T15/16 maps, and do some T0 pinnacle bosses, but I don't juice. I have maybe 250 hours in 0.3, as well.

From that perspective, I'm happy with where SSF is right now. I think the only issue currently is the tablet drop rates recently, and hopefully that's patched eventually. Other than that, SSF is not meant to be a challenge mode, nor is it meant to be in parity with trade. It's supposed to be the base mechanics where the best way to get things is not buying it for 1 div. In that regard, SSF does great.

I like SSF having the same rates as trade, because then even when I pick up a div in SSF, it gives me joy. I have no use for it, but I know it has value.

PoE2 is not a single player game. If you want a single player isometric ARPG, you can try No Rest For The Wicked, Titan Quest II, Grim Dawn, Last Epoch, and so on. If PoE2 doesn't fit what you want, why not give one of those deserving devs some love? By the way, I think Moon Beast Studios is working on a cool ARPG, as well...

EDIT: Did you need to write a 5.5 page, 3,500 word essay? Sometimes less is more.

As a Diablo casual dad gamer - i agree with a lot of OP's points.

Great games, but I prefer PoE 2 as it is more "casual friendly"

My biggest issue is the bloody inflation... of currency / items in SC.
I finally realized why everyone rushes / speed-runs to get to Maps.
The first 2 weeks of league is so so important - gear wise / cost wise...

I have 2 characters : 84 DeadEye and 87 Infernalist... most of my needed upgrades for both are like 30+ Divines at least. Rakiata's , Dialla's Desire etc.

I just watched Fubgun's MinMaxed LA Deadeye video... to be honest it just made me want to quit playing. It is like we are playing different games.. The difference is so stark...

Still, the game is not that hard, most classes are good. And it was fun playing with all the new support gems. End - game is still very bland. Ritual/Breach/Expidition on Repeat... gets old after a bit.

Good luck GGG.


PS.: the grind is real. xD

"

Kabalco#4032 wrote:

I just watched Fubgun's MinMaxed LA Deadeye video... to be honest it just made me want to quit playing. It is like we are playing different games.. The difference is so stark...

I'm sorry, but... isn't this just envy? It's like you were enjoying driving a Toyota, but then your neighbor got a BMW, and now you hate your own car and don't want to drive it, anymore. How is that different?

"

ac429#4687 wrote:

"

Kabalco#4032 wrote:

I just watched Fubgun's MinMaxed LA Deadeye video... to be honest it just made me want to quit playing. It is like we are playing different games.. The difference is so stark...

I'm sorry, but... isn't this just envy? It's like you were enjoying driving a Toyota, but then your neighbor got a BMW, and now you hate your own car and don't want to drive it, anymore. How is that different?

Most players hate FOMO, not the game. They just cant distinguish the two.

"

ac429#4687 wrote:

I'm sorry, but... isn't this just envy? It's like you were enjoying driving a Toyota, but then your neighbor got a BMW, and now you hate your own car and don't want to drive it, anymore. How is that different?

Using your analogy...

It's not that they hate their Toyota. It's that they see their neighbor now has more benefits (money, friends, relationships, etc) just because they drive a BMW. Cops ignore the neighbor when the neighbor drives fast. The neighbor is getting promotions at work and being invited to exclusive clubs.

If you play in trade league then the economy will move with or without you. If your build lags behind everyone else then your progression will be stunted while everyone moves way past you.

Here's just one example...

I really enjoy crafting in early-mid league because I can make tons of different items that'll sell. It's really satisfying to craft up a nice shield or body armor and sell it for 10-30 div... knowing that someone will now use that to progress their character.

But in late league that just stops being a thing. Only the very top tier stuff sells and it costs a lot of currency to craft it. So I have to grind waaaay more just to craft things that sell. So I start crafting less and less until it doesn't make sense anymore.

When you run builds that are significantly weaker than the meta your progression slowed down by a lot. It sucks to spend the weekend playing and only have a few div to show for it. Yea you can grind Sekhema or Expedition but what if that's boring?

I'm playing LA Deadeye this league and the progression is sooo good. I can sit down for a few hours, run whatever content I want, not die at all, and make a bunch of currency. If I was running one of my off meta ideas then it would be the same except 50x slower and 50x less earnings. That's the part that bums people out.

The campaign should only have to be done once per season.
All the fixed bonuses should be unlocked once you finish the campaign.
For the selectable bonuses, it should be possible to make your choice somewhere else (not inside the campaign).

There’s absolutely no reason to make players repeat the campaign for every new character. This season I’ve already done it with:

Ssf Witch x2
Ssf Amazon
Ssf Warrior
Ssf Deadeye
Ssf Monk
Ssf sorc
Trade Witch
I've done the campaing 8 fkn times only on 0.3.
And it’s extremely frustrating. Alt leveling feels totally discouraged by GGG. Leveling items are terrible (even the so-called BIS ones). Skills have level requirements instead of making it easier — for example, once you’ve completed the campaign or unlocked a skill, its level requirement could just be set to 1 so you can rush through the early game more freely.
Leveling should be completely done in the Atlas after finishing the campaign for the first time. Just create leveling waystones for levels 1–10, 10–20, 20–30 and on.

"

ac429#4687 wrote:

"

Kabalco#4032 wrote:

I just watched Fubgun's MinMaxed LA Deadeye video... to be honest it just made me want to quit playing. It is like we are playing different games.. The difference is so stark...

I'm sorry, but... isn't this just envy? It's like you were enjoying driving a Toyota, but then your neighbor got a BMW, and now you hate your own car and don't want to drive it, anymore. How is that different?

It is the realization that I can never reach that level of gear. That is all.

Maybe If I was unemployed or no-life the game 24/7. Or found a Mirror, then yeah, I could have such gear as well.. Otherwise. Nope.