If "hard" content's easy enough for deathless theres no point. Real difficulty > tedious perfection

Difficulty vs (un)forgivingness.



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In this game, there's a clearly defined expectation to do everything deathlessly.
Not merely *even* on the highest difficulty, but *especially* on the the highest "difficulty".

But if I'm raising the difficulty; using higher tier waystones than before, fully modding those waystones, tackling late bosses or special nodes, I expect that to actually mean things will be difficult.
Genuinely difficult.
As in, "hard enough that you WILL die in the process" difficult.

If I can, and I can, clear a fully modded waystone without dying, I might as well just be playing white stones with no mods.
Raising the difficulty is supposed to make the game harder, increase challenge.
If that raised bar is still easy enough to clear without issue, the point of raising the bar is missing.
Clearing something deathlessly that was designed to be easy enough to do so isn't satisfying.

On high tiers, on 6 affix stones, fighting citadels and pinnacles, we SHOULD be dying, because the content should be hard enough that victory is something you achieve well dying in the process, due to doing it without dying not being feasible.

Instead, not only is the supposedly harder content still easy enough to clear deathlessly, it has to be, because you aren't allowed to die.
Both because you only get one attempt before it outright fails, and because of the xp loss.

I'm one of the people who wants to be allowed multiple portals on a fully modded map, multiple deaths in a citadel without losing it, etc.
But it's not just wanting to be allowed to die.
I want the content to be hard enough that dying is expected, presumed, intended, then be allowed to die because you're meant to.

When I say I want the game to be harder, I mean actually harder.
I don't want to up the demand for perfectionism by removing revives, or deleting everything on the map if you revive at boss, or what have you; I want challenge at a level that perfectionism isn't feasible. A level where perfectionism isn't how you win.
I want to be allowed to die twice clearing a fully modded map because the map is hard enough that clearing it without dying just isn't something that happens.

Also for the love of everything increase the character limit for thread titles.

This is how souls-like games usually handle difficulty, but I don't think it works for games like poe2

There's only so much you can do to actually make the game harder, and mostly would be on bosses or the game cheating when we talk about mobs (one shot, bad visual clarity, etc)

So if you straight up remove the "unforgiveness", what you get is no challenge whatsoever

Yea, this all comes down to good execution on ggg's part, but we would also need a rework of gear, stats, monsters, bosses...

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iHiems#0168 wrote:

This is how souls-like games usually handle difficulty, but I don't think it works for games like poe2

There's only so much you can do to actually make the game harder, and mostly would be on bosses or the game cheating when we talk about mobs (one shot, bad visual clarity, etc)

So if you straight up remove the "unforgiveness", what you get is no challenge whatsoever

Yea, this all comes down to good execution on ggg's part, but we would also need a rework of gear, stats, monsters, bosses...

For the record, Souls games would be my prime example of a game that is not difficult, just unforgiving.
I've never called Souls hard, but unforgiving I've said plenty.

Dark Souls was always a series where the game, the fights, were actually easy, but also everything deals so much damage that you'll die more than you would in a more difficult game.

I'm not 100% sure if you were agreeing or disagreeing with that sentiment but you still made me feel like adding it to the thread.

Frustration drives addiction. It's the real reason the player retention is so high. GGG knows this. I don't see a future where that changes. I will say this.

I now know why most streamers pick the most broken meta builds possible every season (Fubgun). It's because they are the least frustrating things to play in the end game. In a game that is intentionally designed to frustrate you. They may not admit that, but that's what's going on.

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The_Song#4903 wrote:

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iHiems#0168 wrote:

This is how souls-like games usually handle difficulty, but I don't think it works for games like poe2

There's only so much you can do to actually make the game harder, and mostly would be on bosses or the game cheating when we talk about mobs (one shot, bad visual clarity, etc)

So if you straight up remove the "unforgiveness", what you get is no challenge whatsoever

Yea, this all comes down to good execution on ggg's part, but we would also need a rework of gear, stats, monsters, bosses...

For the record, Souls games would be my prime example of a game that is not difficult, just unforgiving.
I've never called Souls hard, but unforgiving I've said plenty.

Dark Souls was always a series where the game, the fights, were actually easy, but also everything deals so much damage that you'll die more than you would in a more difficult game.

I'm not 100% sure if you were agreeing or disagreeing with that sentiment but you still made me feel like adding it to the thread.

I believe Dark Souls games are unforgiving in combat, but that can be adjusted instantaneously — dodge later, attack less, don’t get greedy, stand here instead of there. You can adapt on the spot.
Path of Exile, on the other hand, keeps pushing toward being unforgiving in your build. That makes its massive skill tree and deep system feel almost pointless, unless systematically finding a needle in a haystack is your idea of fun.
And when you do make an error, fixing it means a huge time investment. The game ends up feeling disrespectful of the player’s time. That might be a personal gripe, but I think it’s also one of the core reasons the game struggles to appeal to more people — it punishes curiosity instead of rewarding it.

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The_Song#4903 wrote:

"

iHiems#0168 wrote:

This is how souls-like games usually handle difficulty, but I don't think it works for games like poe2

There's only so much you can do to actually make the game harder, and mostly would be on bosses or the game cheating when we talk about mobs (one shot, bad visual clarity, etc)

So if you straight up remove the "unforgiveness", what you get is no challenge whatsoever

Yea, this all comes down to good execution on ggg's part, but we would also need a rework of gear, stats, monsters, bosses...

For the record, Souls games would be my prime example of a game that is not difficult, just unforgiving.
I've never called Souls hard, but unforgiving I've said plenty.

Dark Souls was always a series where the game, the fights, were actually easy, but also everything deals so much damage that you'll die more than you would in a more difficult game.

I'm not 100% sure if you were agreeing or disagreeing with that sentiment but you still made me feel like adding it to the thread.

Very spot on. That is why you can beat dark souls games naked with the starter weapon. As long as you have perfect timing with everything you are immortal in the game. The timing is the difficulty. You can't even get past act 1 fully naked in this game like you can in souls games.

This will never work in a "diablo like" game. It is 100% impossible and those who have this pipe dream that it can be done need to wake up. If it were possible it would require a complete rebuild of this game and taking away everything that makes it POE thus making it not POE.

The problem with "diablo likes" is the vast majority of devs don't know how to add challenge without making it all one shots and damage sponges which is really all the game is late game. Even with 100% pure absolute defense you can still be one shot in this game while doing no damage so it has devolved into the who can one shot who first mindset. Combine that with more kills = more loot to where speed is efficiency, you get forced into the one shot clear screen meta even more so.

Unfortunately I dont know the answer to this problem either except extreme balance to the point of everything would play/feel the same which is not good either. How do you make a boss fight engaging in a game where melee is always shafted compared to range (not the case at all in souls games) while not making it just a one shot fest or take 30 minutes like a WoW raid boss just for the sake of making it "challenging"?

Long term I think if they can get the game to be zoom zoom in maps then somehow in boss fights be more souls like then that sounds like a win but this would require years of balance and no new content added to even come close.

The best thing I can say for people who want more difficulty, stop playing meta skills, down grade gear some, spec less damage, don't trade for instant top end gear and cry its too easy in a week of playing 10 hours a day etc... Make your own challenge. Because if GGG does it, it will just be higher hp bosses and more damage bosses causing players to either play meta or leave. Neither is healthy for the game long term IMO.

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The_Song#4903 wrote:

"

iHiems#0168 wrote:

This is how souls-like games usually handle difficulty, but I don't think it works for games like poe2

There's only so much you can do to actually make the game harder, and mostly would be on bosses or the game cheating when we talk about mobs (one shot, bad visual clarity, etc)

So if you straight up remove the "unforgiveness", what you get is no challenge whatsoever

Yea, this all comes down to good execution on ggg's part, but we would also need a rework of gear, stats, monsters, bosses...

For the record, Souls games would be my prime example of a game that is not difficult, just unforgiving.
I've never called Souls hard, but unforgiving I've said plenty.

Dark Souls was always a series where the game, the fights, were actually easy, but also everything deals so much damage that you'll die more than you would in a more difficult game.

I'm not 100% sure if you were agreeing or disagreeing with that sentiment but you still made me feel like adding it to the thread.

I wasn't talking about DS in specific, just souls-like in general. Wasn't agreeing or disagreeing either. Since you want to know if I agree or disagree tho, you asked for no big penalties on death

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I'm one of the people who wants to be allowed multiple portals on a fully modded map, multiple deaths in a citadel without losing it, etc.

And that's what I agree with if the game is actually balanced around that. However, it's not, it would have to be reworked around that model of combat, because right now the only thing that really kills the player are one shots or the game cheating the player in some way. That's how souls-like games handle difficulty. They're the opposite of unforgiving, given that you can repeat those fights as many times as you want and actually learn the mechanics, then the fight becomes easy. By what you said now though I don't know what you mean by a game being hard or how you imagine a hard fight

Also what you said before and I disagree:

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The simplest and easiest to verbalize example of the distinction between difficulty and forgivingness, off the top of my head:
How difficult a game is is how hard it is for the player to dodge an attack coming at them.
How unforgiving the game is is how much damage the player will take if they fail to dodge.
If the attack is easy to dodge, it's easy no matter how much damage it does.
If all the enemies attacks are easy to dodge the fight is easy.

That's the whole point of having a dodge and what makes the fight engaging. You're supposed to learn the mechanics and then the fight becomes easy. If the boss deals too little damage, then there's no point in dodging at all, you will just face tank and see who dies first based on whoever does more dps

Game is in a literal broken state rn, as most endgame builds aren't your average run of the mill build, like a witch using crossbow cmon no ones gonna even consider that in the the realm of possibilities untill they've done multiple other builds and tried various different weapons/skills, and realize oh my class doesn't limit me to specific weapons? and skills are tied to those weapons? the campaign is designed in a way where you need to make full use of each tier of skill/support gems, can't rush a tier, you need to fully utilize what you have as you get it, this makes the campaign a really challenging and hard yet rewarding and fun experience, you get exactly what you need as you its needed, now when you run through the campaign on a second character and already have t5 support gems? everything is a literal joke, too easy, no difficulty, same kinda goes for early endgame, post campaign when you start mapping its not easy, you realize your gonna need to make some changes to build upgrade your gear etc, this takes some time to fully understand endgame mechanics what you need etc, then changes get made you start surviving and levelling getting higher tiers of gems and now your level 90 and this is the next brick wall for most builds, t15 maps with multiple mods aren't possible without feasable survivability, max resistances being nescasary, what I've come to realize is energy shield is busted, I didn't realize how horrible armour and evasion was untill this patch when they added deflection and armour aplying to elemental, IT MAKES A HUGE DIFFERENCE IN SURVIVABILITY, like playing mjolnir titan build in season 2 would get 1 shotted every other map running 6 mod t15/t16's, with max resistances 80% armour, would be 1 shotted, didn't matter what I did how I respecced, always got 1 shotted, This update im finding the one shots to be way less frequent, i will be able to tank a hit that previously would have insta killed me, giving me a chance to pot up, same thing with deflection now theres more point with speccing into armour and evasion for my merc rather then one vs the other, finding deflect to be the most helpful, respecced my build at level 90 from all the deaths, invested into deflect on all my gear, and can run through maps without damage mods no problem, now if that map does have a damage mod? insta killed, regardless of my deflect evasion armour and max resistances, theres nothing else I can do, so many things still 1 hit, if I had ES though this problem would be solved, as I wouldn't die, My shield would be depleted and a bit of hp, would be hard to spec into ES as a merc as im so far from ES points, at this point just debating a whole new build, or waiting till next season, im losing the fun I found in this game, and then seeing solo vs group drop rates, all my time is being wasted it feels, and my friends have already lost the will to continue playing this season, the community literally being completely divided aswell half saying too hard other half saying to easy? game is in a really sad/broken state, game favors ES at this point in time, needs to be a way to get more HP easily, if there fear is massive HP/ES pools, make nodes that affect HP have opposite affect to ES, but the way this game handles difficulty is not like typical souls, and simply increasing dmg enemies do is just broken, they need to make major reworks to systems in game to remove the major advantages certain classes/parts of skill tree have vs others

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The_Song#4903 wrote:

For the record, Souls games would be my prime example of a game that is not difficult, just unforgiving.
I've never called Souls hard, but unforgiving I've said plenty.

Dark Souls was always a series where the game, the fights, were actually easy, but also everything deals so much damage that you'll die more than you would in a more difficult game.

I'm not 100% sure if you were agreeing or disagreeing with that sentiment but you still made me feel like adding it to the thread.

That’s a nice way to frame it, but I think it oversimplifies things a bit.
How much damage you take isn’t just about forgiveness — it directly affects difficulty too. If you only get one mistake before dying, that completely changes how precise, cautious, and focused you have to be. That’s not just “less forgiving,” that’s harder.
So yeah, it’s a clean analogy, but it kind of splits something that’s inseparable. Difficulty and forgiveness aren’t two different tracks — they feed directly into each other. The line between them only really exists on paper.

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iHiems#0168 wrote:

By what you said now though I don't know what you mean by a game being hard or how you imagine a hard fight

This is what you said before:

"

The simplest and easiest to verbalize example of the distinction between difficulty and forgivingness, off the top of my head:
How difficult a game is is how hard it is for the player to dodge an attack coming at them.
How unforgiving the game is is how much damage the player will take if they fail to dodge.
If the attack is easy to dodge, it's easy no matter how much damage it does.
If all the enemies attacks are easy to dodge the fight is easy.

That's the whole point of having a dodge and what makes the fight engaging. You're supposed to learn the mechanics and then the fight becomes easy. If the boss deals too little damage, then there's no point in dodging at all, you will just face tank and see who dies first based on whoever does more dps

Within the simple example of trying to dodge an attack and how much damage it does;

In a fight that is difficult, after completely learning the mechanics, learning the attack, learning the timing, it remains difficult to dodge the attack.
The attack remains difficult to dodge after fully learning everything about it. Difficulty is not knowing what to do, it's physically managing to actually do it.

You know exactly when you're supposed to hit the dodge button to succeed, and fail anyway.
You know exactly how big the aoe is and therefor how far away to get, but fail to make it there.
It doesn't have to be hard to learn, it has to be hard to do.

Consider: Act 4 boss Benedictus.
One of his attacks creates a set of stone walls with gaps.
The player needs to make it through all the gaps to be on the far side of the walls fast enough to avoid the incoming aoe that takes up the entire area.

That's obviously not hard to learn.
You learn what to do there .01 seconds into the first time he uses the attack.

The forgivingness of it is of course how much damage that attack will do if you're still inside the walls when it lands.
The difficulty of it is the layout of the walls.

As it stands that's a very easy attack, because it's just 3 straight walls with an opening.
If, hypothetically, the devs had wanted that attack to be hard to escape, they could have firstly made the arena bigger, then made the walls form in the shape of mazes large enough to not be a joke.

It's not the best example or anything, a poor one really, but it still paints a picture of something that provides some actual difficulty that doesn't go away just because you know what to do.
Even if you memorized all the possible layouts you'd still have to notice which one it is and path through in time. You'd still fail often enough even after fully learning it.