5% remove life, mana, es mod issue

hi
there is a mod that removes a percentage of your life, mana, es on enemy hit.
does it mean that this mod will kill me on my CI character?

swear to god i ran a ton of maps with this mod on and nothing happened until just now. i got oneshoted with my full energy shield

maybe im just trippin but is this mod a no go for all Ci builds?

thanx

Edit: Discussion from me in this thread is either speculation, or has a large level of uncertainty, and I have made many edits while adding to it. Reading some other post I may be wrong and it may be able to remove the one life. It is possible it has something to do with life recovery mechanic, that it can recover the life on the same frame, but if you don't have enough recovery to over come it, or if recovery is impeded at the time, that you may die. Could be that you usually have some life recovery, but the map mods or some other condition within the area, or a build change, like Zealots oath, had it turned off. If I find something with more informed information I will post.

(Possibly incorrect)
I think 5% of 1 rounds down to 0 dmg, but I don't know the exact interactions, it's possible that some interaction makes it dangerous.

with all the increased map mod effects from the tree it was 9% total.

(Tldr: I don't know how the mechanic works, but if it is able to kill you conditionally it may relate to integers and how recovery/degen is applied on each frame, and/or possibly taking multiple hits. Have provided links to discussion on some mechanics that may or may not be related, where Mark_GGG and other GGG staff have commented. The question remains, is this mod what killed you through ES and if so, why have you been able to run it at other times? Assuming this is the full mod description in question that you were running, from the T17 mod pool: "Rare and Unique Monsters remove 5% of Life, Mana and Energy Shield from Players or their Minions on Hit." It seems likely that it was that mod, if you were using it, and ES was not depleted, but without knowing, there is also a possibility that it was caused from something else.)

Do you know if you have any life regen? It might have something to do with getting hit multiple times at once stacking as well.

Certainly, remove life can bypass energy shield, as it does with the life remove mana flask mod. I'm also fairly sure, that the way the recovery/damage calculation is done, allows you to pay the cost with recovery happening at the same time, however I don't know if recovery can cover off loss when limited by max life value in all combinations or times of receiving the health change. It seems confirmed from Mark-GGG quote later in this post that regen can cover degen, but that does not necessarily mean all incoming life covers off outgoing life if aspects of the calculation are separate. I think the removal comes under the umbrella of loss.

https://www.poewiki.net/wiki/Loss

"Loss is a catch-all term for negative changes to resources, primarily life, mana, and energy shield. It can be considered the opposite of recovery."

"Recovery and loss are normally distinct modifications.[4] When the same event causes both loss and recovery, they are not totalled and applied together; they modify your resources individually, in an order appropriate for the effects involved."

"Loss from non-damage sources does not hit, cannot be modified by defensive stats, and does not interrupt recharge."

I think it may not count as being damaged and is being applied from condition of the hit, but not a hit itself. It does not appear to be listed in receiving damage order list (below). The closest thing I can see is when they are talking about DoD at 2., in the damage received wiki (below). Saying, ("regular?") when hit mechanics come after the damage calculation.

https://www.poewiki.net/wiki/Receiving_damage

"2. Before being Hit:
Effects such as
Defiance of Destiny
's Gain #% of Missing Unreserved Life before being Hit by an Enemy occur immediately after the defender fails to prevent the hit. (Regular when-hit or on-hit effects do not apply until after all other steps on this page.)"

I assume this all has to happen on calculating the resultant change of life on the same frame. I'm unsure when the check for death occurs. I think it is not checked at every step of the calculation, but I'm unsure. Someone has asked the question (below). I'm unsure that the answer fully responds to the question, but it does provide some information.

https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/3284453

Player question -

"When is a character dead? Can you be below 0 hp and then a mechanic instantly gives you health back on the same frame/servertick?"

Mark (I think this is a more recent FAQ, and thus Mark may refer to the current Dev, and not Mark_GGG) -

""Dead" means having 0 current life. It is not a separate state, just a shorthand name for checking whether life is currently 0."

On the player health bar life is an integer, but I do not know exactly how it works with fractions and rounding. However, the 1 life CI may be similar or related to something that happens to your on full life status, while taking DOT damage, such as with RF or bloodrage, while recovering. You can sometimes get a flickering number on your health bar, that goes up and down rapidly, while out scaling the degen with regen. In a mechanical questions thread (link below),

Mark_GGG stated that:

"While you will not actually be consistantly on absolutely full life because you will degen a bit every frame before regening it, it is possible to benefit from those bonuses. The "full life" condition was changed a while ago so that if the amount of life you're recoverying per second is higher than the amount you're losing per second, such that you are hitting full and falling back again each frame, you count as on full life the whole time."

https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1676002/filter-account-type/staff/page/5#p15196665

This may only relate to full life status and not actually dropping one health, but it might be possible that this also extends to being on 1 health, and technically going below one health, but counting as being 1 health the whole time. Which may have something to do with why you have been able to run this mod, but have encountered a death at this time (Although, in quote from Mark_GGG (further down this reply), about Right of ruin, he says these two things are not related. However mentions that it is possible to cover life loss with regen. This may not extended to different kinds of life loss/removal or recovery.)

In terms of rounding, I jumped to an assumption, as numbers often are rounded down in POE, but making assumptions often leads to incorrect statements, especially if there are other governing mechanics. In terms of exact numbers, how much you may need to overcome this, I'm not sure exactly. I think it may involve the frame rate, and needing to out recover the damage on that frame and every time that you are hit. Frames are 33ms.

Some discussion (below) about numbers often being rounded down, but perhaps not always.

https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1416401/page/2

I have not been able to find much information on the exact question. Perhaps there is some talk about it around expedition league when the remnant was added or when T17 map mod was introduced. Also trying to think of another similar mechanic in the game, that can be used as evidence of how it works or for testing, but don't have one of the top of my head.

This is the most similar thing I have found (reddit question below). The question relates to Pandemic, a Bog shaman ascendancy from phrecia, with the mod, "Lose 5% of Life per second if you have been Hit Recently". It is DOT, so possibly works differently, but it is the closest I could find.

https://www.reddit.com/r/PathOfExileBuilds/comments/1ipxbbf/question_ci_and_lose_life/#:~:text=There%20is%20an%20existing%20example,health%20regen%20will%20counter%20it.

Someone also mentioned Right of Ruin for Berserker with CI. There is a more in depth discussion about that (below) that also involve Mark_GGG. It is from 8 years ago, and I assume changes were made later, but there might be some helpful information in the thread. Relates to life degen while CI and being able to counter it. Note, there has been changes to rage and Right of ruin since that time.

https://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/82hhfl/berserker_rage_and_ci_are_weird/

Mark_GGG

"You should be able to counter it with regen, but I think this post has tipped me off to a subtle bug. I'll look into that."

Mark_GGG

"However, it appears there's a bug with degeneration and regeneration with regard to your first 1 life, which with CI is your only point of life. It should correctly cause the appropriate life loss, and you should be able to counter that with an appropriate amount of regeneration, which currently does not happen."

User to Mark_GGG

"In the light of the new fix, could you please confirm if flat life regen will do the trick? 10 flat regen is 1000% life regen, so should cover Rage degen even with multiple "increased damage taken" effect on you, is this right?"

Mark_GGG response

"I believe that should be the case, but I was not directly involved in the fix so cannot confirm that."

User to Mark_GGG

"Is that related to the really strange "bug" where you (while using for example RF) do not regen up to your maximum hp, but sometimes stop like 20-30 hp shy of the max?"

Mark_GGG

"I don't think it can be. This is specifically about your first 1 life."

I'm not across the actual numbers they are using in their calculation, and since it was mentioned there was a bug at that time, it is not going to be that helpful to investigate it further. It seems though, there is a break point, of the combined rage degen, that may involve rounding, that causes enough damage to impact the 1 HP health pool for CI characters.

Some other links relating to the full health status and visual representation while on full life during degen, that player are discussing, that I read and that may contain something of relevance:

https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/2991817
https://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/jt2l8u/does_rf_reserve_life_can_you_be_on_full_life/

i have some regen on tree and vitality lvl 10

"

xfiendmate#7211 wrote:

hi
there is a mod that removes a percentage of your life, mana, es on enemy hit.
does it mean that this mod will kill me on my CI character?

No unless the percentage is 100%.

"

Belegur85#5784 wrote:

I think 5% of 1 rounds down to 0 dmg

That's right.

"

Belegur85#5784 wrote:

I think 5% of 1 rounds down to 0 dmg

That's right.[/quote]

Lol, I see. Is there anything else OP might have died to through ES? Or is it likely that it was just a normal death? I know when dyeing to chaos damage on a hybrid build it is pretty noticeable, but on CI does getting one-shotted look the same as damage bypassing the shield?

"

xfiendmate#7211 wrote:

i have some regen on tree and vitality lvl 10

Sounds like it may be something else than all my speculation which can be ignored. It sounds like if this value is rounded down, it might be a safe mod for CI. Perhaps it is something else. I don't think it can be cull related, because you are always full life with CI. The only thing I know of is mana flask
"Removes 15% of mana recovered from life when used", which you would of noticed. Which of your characters are you playing?

thanks for replies

also i entered a map without my merc (that died the same time as i did),
i was surrounded by lots of mobs. rare,exiles and map boss. and i didnt die.

i am playing ascendant. its a merc build.

ps: my merc was dying from the start of the map. and he rarely takes any damage in the most juiced maps

(Possible answer: I think you are linking to your merc by the look of it? I'm not familiar with linking, but when one in the link dies both die. Were you linked at the time? Do you play much link builds before Merc league? If your merc is very tanky and hasn't been dying previously, you may not of encountered this yet. You said merc health was getting low when entering the map. That mod will effect it, because it is not CI. Have you run this mod with the Merc before. It is possible that there is a combination of mods as well, that meant it could not recover on this map. I think when your linked Merc dies it probably means you die instantly, without having taken damage, so might look like dying through ES.)

Was it a T17 or one of the memory maps? What else do you run, any alters, any fragments? So merc was taking heavy damage but you did not die until late in the map and it was instant?

Going to be hard to say what it might be. Unless it happens again with this mod, it might be something random. Very hard to say without replay. By the look of the levelling on your characters, you probably know the mods better than I do. Maybe something like corpse detonation?

I see you are using zealots oath, so you have no life regen, but without more information about this map mod, I take what Mona is saying as correct, and it is probably not the cause. It would need to be 20x multiply on the mod to get to 100%, which seems unlikely. Also if your merc died at the same time, I assume merc does not have CI, so it's likely something else.

yea
its definitely this mod that is a no go for this build mine.
i dunno i dont understand it and i dont wanna deal with it.

i just avoid this mod.