For 3 years Dervish players have been asking for the abandoned rework to be reverted.

So 3.5 years ago GGG removed the prophecy league, and with it they had to officially do something with Dervish. I have yet to meet a single Dervish main who likes this change. Initially it had some promise, but it had severe issues in certain situations. These issues were "fixed" in a way that was in opposition to the feedback (adding a lock-on mechanic) and ended up causing even more issues and ruining the AI for the top end. Do yall think it's normal that some players constantly use predator for basic mapping? Do you guys think it's normal for Dervish to maphack, lock on and get stuck on walls? Do you guys think it's normal for Dervish to lock on to converted mobs and keep attacking them after they convert? Seeing them stick to mercs portaling out grinds my gears... Do you guys think it's normal that Dervish micro-freezes during every pack when it has a decent amount of damage because it seemingly gets confused that the thing it's killing has died?

Revert the Dervish rework. It's a clear example of sunk-cost fallacy. In Necro and Settlers, dervish didn't even work, it just stopped moving after 1 target. Doing its best blade trap impression. This league, it had its construct tag removed for no apparent reason, nerfing a minion that can barely hit 10 million dps with near mirror gear. For some reason something broke about its interaction with chains of command as well. Kick a niche while it's down will ya? - I got word that this was unintended and will be fixed, no word on the construct thing and its interaction with Hulking Miscreation yet.

If GGG needs more economic incentives, the weapon effect store is much larger than the cyclone effect store, and Dancing Duo was the best weapon trail salesthing around.

The spectres of the Steel Soul have a better AI than the reworked dancing dervish. I can't believe you guys would let this embarrassment stand. Any excuses for not being able to revert the cyclone are ridiculous while these spectres exist.

Please just revert the rework, and adjust its old cyclone to scale its strike range because that doesn't increase its pathing AoE. This solves the only issue (apart from balance numbers) that the Dancing Dervish had before the rework. The rework introduced numerous issues whose fixes introduced more issues that were then seemingly given up on. Even Ghazzy talks about how its just feels abandoned in his recent tier list.

I'm posting my review from 3 years ago below because most of it is still a relevant criticism because that's how abandoned it's been apart from some critical bug fixes.

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So... Is the new Dancing Duo/Dervish rework good or bad?

First of all, we neeed to talk about how Dervish was before the rework. It was (and still is) the most aggressive minion around, with a few unique quirks to it.

Design wise, it was always intended to have some kind of ramp-up to summon the minions, vaal souls were mulled over, but we got the more accessible Rampage mechanic [1]. Every Dancing Dervish build had Writhing Jars as a result to fight boss fights and start their mapping. Somewhere around 3.0-3.1 the swords gained the ability to sustain permanently against unique monsters [2], a detail missed by many as it was only viewable on the skill in the character screen [3].

It's not immortal as some believe, it is in fact targetable, has an HP pool and just has insane damage reduction [4][5]. On release, it was little more than a glorified animated weapon, occasionally using what seems to be a monster version of cyclone, like the one of The Shipyard Terror for example [6]. Around 2.6 it pretty much only started using this cyclone [7]. It could immediatly start cycloning, and often did so before you even saw the monster. To quote multiple people "They just f off and GO". Convocation was key, and was pretty synergistic as the swords had no attack animation, they were just always cycloning when there's an enemy, hitting with an average of 13aps each with multistrike with no wind up. Most of the time though, you were following them.

This cyclone however, had a major drawback against single targets. It forced the swords to travel a minimum distance, with their actual damage uptime being around 40-50%.[8] They did however go absolutely ham on double bosses for example, where this minimum distance disappeared - I actually did better in a double boss map mods than single ones. This was a major weakness of the build that many DD players wished GGG could fix, because we've seen the possible tech during these situations and extremely rarely against a single target. The weapon range enchant from Harvest combined with Hillocks 30% quality, along with a level 21/20 Behead actually solved this problem [9].

This cyclone, or maybe AI, had a quirk that became very apparent after the rework was released with new AI. The old Dancing Duo would always finish its cyclone to whatever it wanted to kill, even through convocation [10], and this resulted in them being very thorough, though a bit dificult to learn how to manage. But honestly, the AI was glorious, it seemingly knew to path through the middle of packs and it would just lead the way [11]. In fights like the Feared, if there were two bosses close together, and shaper for example was off somewhere else, they would focus on the two bunched bosses first, until the 3rd wanders into range and the swords start pathing between the two and the third. They would always carry out their "attack" though, only changing direction once they reached the enemy they got to [12].

So GGG didn't actually have much that they really needed to improve upon, Rampage being the summoning mechanic was core to the philosophy of the swords, and it was thematically intended for an unarmed cyclone build [1]. The main problem was pretty much only the single target pathing, because the swords had received all these improvements over the years, like the AI, base accuracy buffs, sustain against bosses etc. and a teeny nerf when the two handed sword rework came around. It was a fine example of how GGG does these unmentioned improvements over the years (like charge monkey buffs during the last league, boss taunt AI fixes this patch etc.) and imo one of the most iconic unqiues in the game, with a fun, unique almost walking simulator-like playstyle, with some respectable boss damage when invested in. [13]

So what it's like now? Let's start with the cyclone, instead of just a copy paste of player cyclone it got its own custom DancingDervishCycloneChannelled [14] cyclone skill, with notable differences, such as the lack of movement speed reduction, and of course bonkers attack speed, as well as great scaling with flat damage. The end result is that even if it worked, Multistrike would only be a 15% damage difference because of the inherent 200% bonkers attack speed scaling and suddenly slapping a further 20% less damage on top of the 65% base damage from the skill. Honestly it's hard to confirm whether it works or not, because I can't tell the difference between 15% but the UI says it supports it [15]. The remnant basic attack might be the culprit triggering all this though. Doesn't really matter in the end though, GGG gave us more movespeed by removing the penalty and "compensated" for the attack speed "loss" from the Multistrike gem because it was core, and by all intents should not be able to support the new Dervish. And GGG's intention was clearly to not nerf the swords, after they added back the inherent rampage mod after the outcry by summoner archetypes who did not want to have melee hits be the only way to summon the swords [16].

The AI however... well something was fishy from the moment the manifesto came out, because it said that the old AI was bad and clunky. So how have they improved this clunky AI? Well they sit on unique/rare monsters now, which is great since the range mechanic wasn't necessary for optimal DPS anymore, but they really sit on those monsters, to the point where beefy rares, (The stat for 25% rampage kill on hitting a unique enemy was not updated to include rares [3]) attract all the aggro, and they end up ignoring worms that you're using, so you have to do some convocate worms shenanigans to keep them up. The unarmed demographic however also need worms to sustain the swords, as the summon, unsummon cycle vs rares must be awkward. This aspect of the AI is mitigated by just having a lot of damage and bypassing having to sustain against these rares, for both summoner and unarmed, but this requires heavy investment on both ends.

This single mindedness becomes especially clear against the boss of the Temple of Atzoatl, when two immovable objects collided and the nigh immortal swords only targeted the invulnerable boss as it was phasing [17]. It's not just worms being ignored by the swords sometimes though, I've seen them ignore many "non-combatants" in situations like Syndicate Fortress doors (Although they did fix the bug they had with those doors since 3.4) or cannot die totems. It's awkward and doesn't feel like an improvement.

When there's multiple "priority" targets the swords behaviour gets even stranger, they end up switching targets so often that sometimes they up hitting nothing at all [18]. This gets kinda frustrating in fights like the crucible, or even the phoenix arena as it just looks awkward compared to before. The bossfight with the 3 archers also awkward. They went from wolves that will finish their hunt, to puppies with a short attention span. They're not as thorough while mapping, and they don't lead the way like they used to.

A simple improvement that could made is that GGG restores the behaviour which let the swords finish off their cyclone, they seem good in most respects but these awkward moments happen far too often, and if their AI was pretty similar to the way it was before, perhaps this is the only change that's needed to restore that thoroughness they used to have.

Overall it's an improvement to the large majority of boss fights in the game, but the AI feels very unpolished and indecisive. It's a shame that the league mechanic wasn't considered when reworking the swords, including sustain against rares, and there are some really bad habits of the AI. If they apply the same polish that they did to the old AI, it will be a great rework overall, but the AI really detracts from how much it could shine, especially in the crucible challenges.

[1] https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1655064

[2] https://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/7wa6jl/discussion_state_of_the_dancing_dervish_in_31/

[3] https://i.gyazo.com/70f91435e6722c79a1588557403c12ce.png

[4] https://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/5eir5m/tdd_analysis_with_the_new_league_approaching/dadeblc/?st=jn3jtoda&sh=40483d7f

[5] https://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/9mtgtf/ive_posted_a_guide_to_my_occultist_dancing_duo_as/e7jkjk9/

[6] https://poedb.tw/us/The_Shipyard_Terror

[7] https://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/6jyv90/analysis_state_of_the_dancing_dervish_in_26/

[8] No hard numbers, but the audio in this video makes it pretty clear: https://youtu.be/Ykn4apqShPs?t=238

[9] No numbers, but I hope the audio of their hits is clear (and the damage): https://youtu.be/DG3yIFrbnDI?t=230

[10] https://youtu.be/hpBNgv6aXT0?t=143

[11] https://youtu.be/d5YHO41cUpk?t=17

[12] https://youtu.be/ASepgODvDE4?t=66

[13] https://i.gyazo.com/3ea25374bfc171cb7634ab2471d503e9.png

[14] https://poedb.tw/us/Dancing_Dervish#DancingDervishUniqueAnimatedWeapon

[15] https://i.gyazo.com/ad12d4e5f05a665a6d25210fa7217113.jpg

[16] https://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/sb5ii6/in_siege_of_the_atlas_weve_reworked_the_dancing/hu2sftl/?context=10

[17] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rc606nMMy8w

[18] https://youtu.be/apw8TI9T4xA?t=23

Hello,

Fellow player here trying to understand what Dervish is. Can you explain in a few sentences?

It's basically 2 animated weapons that exclusively use cyclone. They used to use old cyclone, and 3 years ago GGG reworked them to use new cyclone. It used to be the fastest minion clear in the game until they introduced the new cyclone with its stutter stepping and various bugs.


Viperesque offered to listen to feedback but has not replied in 3 years so I'm curious why this change has been kept in the game when the original creator dislikes it, the players dislike it, and it limits the mtx market for it.