Understanding EO and shaper ascendancies correctly

Do I understand EO correctly that now this node will prevent me from ever applying an elemental ailment with my skills via a critical hit?
But that it would NOT prevent me from applying an elemental ailment via other means (e.g. chance to apply ailment on hit from passives, inherent skill gem, or gear)?
I'm not sure how this works with the shaper of... Ascendancies (nor in fact how the wording of those ascendancies is to be interpreted anyhow).
The wording on "shaper of" says any hit WILL inflict an ailment of that type and any damage CAN inflict it, not that it will do so. Does this mean, for example with shaper of storms:
- that even hitting an enemy with a frost bolt will shock (no matter what the chances, and if critical or not)?
- that even damage that does not hit (e.g. DoT) can inflict shock (how?)?
- speccing into shaper of storms makes sources of chances to inflict shock redundant?

With EO, for example, an elementalist with both EO and shaper of storms will always shock with every hit, but that the shock would just count as coming from shaper (which it would have anyway)?

Thanks in advance

Shaper of ... ascendancy nodes give you a 100% chance to apply their ailment on hit regardless of damage type. So your fire damage will apply shock with shaper of storms allocated etc. The restriction that ailments can only applied by hits remains. If you have somethin on your gear that says you can not apply a certain ailment then shaper of ... also doesn't help because it only set's your chance to apply to 100%. If you are blocked from applying it that goes to waste. And yes, sources of ailment application are pointless when you have these.

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Baharoth15 wrote:

Shaper of ... ascendancy nodes give you a 100% chance to apply their ailment on hit regardless of damage type. So your fire damage will apply shock with shaper of storms allocated etc. The restriction that ailments can only applied by hits remains. If you have somethin on your gear that says you can not apply a certain ailment then shaper of ... also doesn't help because it only set's your chance to apply to 100%. If you are blocked from applying it that goes to waste. And yes, sources of ailment application are pointless when you have these.

Thanks.
I was irritated by the word "can" in the description refering to damage. The description differentiates between "hits" (which apply an ailment) and "all damage" (which "can" apply an ailment).
Why do they write these two different lines?
With Shaper of storms for example: Why do they write "all damage can shock" if they write "hits always shock" and they don't mean anything different?

I'm still confused about Elemental Overload. I understand everything but the last line: "Ailments never count as being from critical strikes." Does this mean I can never apply an ailment via critting, but only by a source which gives an inherent +% chance to crit?

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onomastikon wrote:

With Shaper of storms for example: Why do they write "all damage can shock" if they write "hits always shock" and they don't mean anything different?

They do mean different things

all damage can shock means the shock calculation is based on all 5 damage types not just the default (lightning). It does not mean you always shock.

hits always shock means you are treated as having 100% chance to shock at all times regardless of your actual value/modifiers (short of cannot as cannot trumps always in PoE terms)

As to EO what it means is an ailment will never be treated as coming from a critical strike - hence perfect agony or damage over time multiplier with critical strikes or the 50% default multiplier will never apply.

It does not however mean that critical strikes don't apply ailments, it means that when they are applied they don't count as being from a critical strike for damage purposes.

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Draegnarrr wrote:

It does not however mean that critical strikes don't apply ailments, it means that when they are applied they don't count as being from a critical strike for damage purposes.

While it hasn't meant that in the past, it does mean that now. The wiki has it listed as an undocumented change that occured this league.

Testing it in-game, this does seem to be true. Hits that crit with EO allocated don't appear to shock, even if the hit did enough damage to kill the enemy.

Oh really? I didn't know this - damn undocumented changes lol

In practical terms it isn't really relevant as there is anti-synergy between using crit to apply your ailment and taking EO but I'll definitely have to try and remember it for future.

I only found out that they made EO ailments last league though i thought it was still 40% more elemental damage >< I should just check the wiki page everytime.

I still dont entirely understand and see conflicting information.

If EO is allocated, does that mean that:
- critical hits will NEVER proc ailment
but that
- Shaper Of ... allocation will STILL provide ailment application (just not "only" on crit)
- provided an ailment blocker (like elemental focus) is not being used
??
If the above is not correct, could you specify please?

thanks

AFAIK with that previous posters correction from the wiki assuming its correct your list above is correct except for the first line.

It isn't that critical hits will never proc ailments, its that critical hits no longer have a free 100% chance from being a crit.

So if you have 50% chance to shock and you deal a critical hit with EO you still have 50% chance for that critical hit to shock.

This is the difference between "ailments never count as being from a critical strike" and "critical strikes cannot inflict ailments" - its a partial qualifier vs a full one.