Dogs Will One Day Rule the Earth

Last bumped on Jan 19, 2021, 3:34:28 PM
"
BearCares wrote:


Nah, unless dogs evolve fingers to manipulate tools. Tho I wonder, are dogs evolving intelectually faster that wolves? Dogs are living in human environment, interacting with various gadgets and toys, stimulating their brains more than a wolf in a forest.
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing" - Edmund Burke
Last edited by Toshis8 on Jan 18, 2021, 6:21:12 AM
I highly doubt domesticated animals are any smarter than wild ones - I believe the reason we might want to see them as being smarter is because we are projecting ourselves onto our pets in a way that we don't project onto dangerous wild animals
I agree that we tend to project ourselves onto our pets, but think about this: Wolf's enviromnent is quite stagnant, it isnt really changing much. They are really good at hunting, but thats the only thing they do really. How well a wolf would perform if it was thrown in a completely different enviromnent or was forced to sovle some problems/puzzles? Dog's enviromnent is dynamic, there is always something new thrown at him. More different ways to think how to apprach different situations.

Edit: Human civilization flourished when humans didnt have to spend so much time hunting and had more free time to put their mental energy in other areas.
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing" - Edmund Burke
Last edited by Toshis8 on Jan 18, 2021, 6:42:38 AM
That's a good sounding theory however nature is quite capable of producing intelligent creatures without the help of a human environment just like nature creates beautiful creatures without the discretion of human breeders. I mean think about it what breed of domesticated animal is as beautiful as a wild Tiger? The same goes for the other desirable attributes within animals - nature's made some real bangers out there as far as intelligence is concerned - it's just that it's harder to see an animal's intelligence from the same distance
Remembered an old video. Childish format, but still he has some good points
:)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQTwvbWAx8A
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing" - Edmund Burke
"
Toshis8 wrote:
I agree that we tend to project ourselves onto our pets, but think about this: Wolf's enviromnent is quite stagnant, it isnt really changing much. They are really good at hunting, but thats the only thing they do really. How well a wolf would perform if it was thrown in a completely different enviromnent or was forced to sovle some problems/puzzles? Dog's enviromnent is dynamic, there is always something new thrown at him. More different ways to think how to apprach different situations.

Edit: Human civilization flourished when humans didnt have to spend so much time hunting and had more free time to put their mental energy in other areas.


Note: Ethology, which is what it was called back in the day, is something of a hobby of mine. Or, at least it was. :) I think the term has been superseded in recent decades. But, ethology, animal intelligence, evolutionarrily reinforced behaviors, etc, has long fascinated me. Hence... I'm blathering off at the keyboard, again. Sorry. :)

A TLDR Summation: Wild canids are likely "smarter" in raw capacity than most of our domesticated dogs. However, dogs are likely the most domesticated companion animal species there is on the planet. Dogs are very adept at being human companions and demonstrate a host of capabilities not likely found in many other species where it comes down to working well with humans. Dogs understand us, in basic terms, and elicit predictable responses to human ques and in interactions. We have bred them to be companion animals, serving a variety of needs. But, while they are no doubt supreme in this role, "raw capacity" may be a bit less than some wild counterparts in general. Breeds matter, too, as they've been manipulated for certain traits. Some could be more intelligent than other breeds and even more capable than their wild cousins.


Until we come up with a Doggie IQ Test, and decide on what canine "intelligence" is, we probably won't get a decent answer. But, in brief: It may be that wild "wolves" and canid cousins are actually "smarter" than an average domesticated dog.

Dogs are "bright" as far as domesticated animals go. They are very adept, however, with many skills a companion animal must have to work well with humans. And, that's the key takeaway - Because they're so very domesticated, we see a good bit of their full potential right in front of us. Dogs are somewhat unique among domesticated animals in that they can, in certain situations, "empathize" with humans. That doesn't mean they know how we feel if we get fired from our jobs, it means they can understand intent, commands, that we're looking at something or alerted. It's a weak doggie version of a Theory of Mind, but they can exhibit understanding. (Plenty of studies, there, but not all participants/breeds may show the same aptitude. :))

Wolves are wild animals. It's hard to judge their capacity just through observation. They can't go to the store to buy a pencil to color in the dots on a multiple choice test... But, from what I recall of what I've read/studied, dog's wild counterparts tend to be regarded as more intelligent, overall. They must coordinate, navigate, detect and make "decisions" regarding prey, enemies, mates, etc. A lot of emphasis has been placed on things like a typical wolf's pack or social structure. IMO, it's not likely as complex as some would prefer to think it is. But, the rigors they're subjected to often weed out "dumb" members fairly quickly. (Navigation is a "huge" deal, here, and implies a truckload of "intelligence" in general and wild wolves are very territorial and capable of traveling and navigating over long distances in their territory. Some dogs do that as well, too.)

But, there's really no doubt that canids of many sorts are very social creatures. If anything, just their evolutionarrily reinforced traits that are very focused on social behaviors and needs should clue us in on how important pack/social behavior is for them. Signalling, special glands for territorial signalling, visual/auditory capabilities related directly to social/pack behavior, etc. There is no reason to doubt that their evolutionarrily reinforced behaviors and even internal "minds" are similarly well focused for pack/social behavior.

But, it doesn't mean they're brilliant. :) (Sad to say, but the last study I read on making comparisons between dog and cat capacity ranked cats as a bit smarter... But, cats are considered "semi-domesticated" animals. They're not as domesticated as dogs. In short - Most cats would not wish to participate in a formal study. Dogs would, just because they love us. :))

The key difference that makes dogs appear to maybe be a bit smarter than their wild cousins is that they're fully domesticated. They exhibit the behaviors we value because if they didn't, they wouldn't be considered our animal companions. (We bred them to exhibit these behaviors and responses.) They are, IMO, as perfect a domesticated companion animal can be in terms of being fine-tuned for cohabitation with humans. They tend to "love" us. That scores big points with humans. :) (Studies have shown that, yes, your dog probably loves you in the capacity that a dog can love you.:)) In turn, we see their domesticated and long-bred behavior in its best light, most of the time.

Dog breeds matter. Some seem to be clearly more intelligent, in general, than others. Certainly, working dog breeds are bred to be able to assist in practical tasks the results of which are seen every time that task is completed. Australian Shepherds are often considered one of the "smartest" breeds. Why? They were bred to be that way. In that case, are they smarter than a wolf? Maybe. Considering that breeds have become so specialized, there is no reason to assume that their intellectual capacity is not similarly affected. So, some specific breeds may not only be unusually "intelligent" compared to wolves, but also to their fellow dogs.

Dogs are fine-tuned for social and pack behavior over bajillions of years of natural evolution. We have been mucking about with that for a bit more than 10,000 years or so, give or take. (10k is "safe," but there's evidence for much longer associations.) "Specialized" breeding is even more recent. (I recall a chart, somewhere, on the first appearances of fully specialized, domesticated, dog "breeds.") It's not easily possible to take a "generic dog" and make certain sorts of comparisons to related species - We've bred them to be different from each other.

So,m it's difficult to make species-specific generalizations between wolves and "dogs" without drilling down to examine more specific breeds. A Chihuahua is probably not generally "smarter" than a "working dog" species like an Australian Shepherd, for instance. I've nothing against Chihuahuas, but they're not "working dogs," IMO, and thus don't have a lot of focus on intellectual capacity in our breeding efforts. I'd expect them to be very much a companion breed, but not bred for more than that.


PS: A note on the OP vid - There is something wrong with that dog... Most likely, it's anxious and stir-crazy. Just an offhand judgement, but it's not likely the dog gets enough stimulation, exercise, varied outdoor activity, socialization, etc. That the dog has performed this behavior for long enough to over-develop what are normally not so abused muscles points to much more serious issues than just "cute play behavior." It wouldn't be an unusual setting for an "apartment dog," either. (Largely incompatible with most breeds without extensive human support/effort.) It's also worth noting that animals can have mental/emotional problems, too. :) So, the dog could really be just "crazy."
Last edited by Morkonan on Jan 18, 2021, 12:34:10 PM
Cat using artificial voice to communicate:
https://youtu.be/TPJwzL8awJk

Your own conclusions: Draw them. =^[.]^=
=^[.]^= basic (happy/amused) cheetahmoticon: Whiskers/eye/tear-streak/nose/tear-streak/eye/
whiskers =@[.]@= boggled / =>[.]<= annoyed or angry / ='[.]'= concerned / =0[.]o= confuzzled /
=-[.]-= sad or sleepy / =*[.]*= dazzled / =^[.]~= wink / =~[.]^= naughty wink / =9[.]9= rolleyes #FourYearLie
"
Raycheetah wrote:
Cat using artificial voice to communicate:
https://youtu.be/TPJwzL8awJk

Your own conclusions: Draw them. =^[.]^=


:)

There's a ton of vids/articles/etc involving dogs, too. Both species appear to understand simple ques and commands, even attributing causal behavior to stimuli, like pressing a button causes a human to do something. It's difficult to associate that behavior with an intent to communicate more than the sum of its parts, though. ie: "Love you" could very well mean "the human will pet me where I like to be petted or will alleviate anxiety, treat me like I'm royalty, eventually spend a lot of time giving me treats..." :)

This is something more significant, I think, and a pretty popular occurrence of "language" recognition: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/20/science/dog-learning-toys.html

The dog wasn't intentionally trained by a learned professional to recognize the names of its toys. RIP "Chaser" - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ip_uVTWfXyI

Again, though, dogs are purposefully altered animals that have been bred as human companions and, in many cases, specifically bred for certain "working" activities. That's a ton of selection for certain types of behavior. Cats aren't quite there yet in terms of mankind's overall manipulation of their species. And, it may be just do to the fact that despite how many things they can do, only a few of those may be things they're normally capable of doing. A cat probably doesn't make a good sheep-herder. They're not long-distance runners/pursuit predators. For "ratting?" They're easily good at that, being ambush predators.

Note: Something else interesting - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alex_(parrot) The book, "Alex & Me", is a wonderful read and Irene Pepperberg is pretty darn outstanding in terms of being a professional interested in animal cognition, specifically with parrots/birds. Though, some things deserve criticism in terms of some conclusions, I think the general gist that studies involving Alex and other animals reveal is important - They appear to have more capacity than we often give them credit for.
Last edited by Morkonan on Jan 18, 2021, 2:05:16 PM
Spoiler
"
Morkonan wrote:
"
Toshis8 wrote:
I agree that we tend to project ourselves onto our pets, but think about this: Wolf's enviromnent is quite stagnant, it isnt really changing much. They are really good at hunting, but thats the only thing they do really. How well a wolf would perform if it was thrown in a completely different enviromnent or was forced to sovle some problems/puzzles? Dog's enviromnent is dynamic, there is always something new thrown at him. More different ways to think how to apprach different situations.

Edit: Human civilization flourished when humans didnt have to spend so much time hunting and had more free time to put their mental energy in other areas.


Note: Ethology, which is what it was called back in the day, is something of a hobby of mine. Or, at least it was. :) I think the term has been superseded in recent decades. But, ethology, animal intelligence, evolutionarrily reinforced behaviors, etc, has long fascinated me. Hence... I'm blathering off at the keyboard, again. Sorry. :)

A TLDR Summation: Wild canids are likely "smarter" in raw capacity than most of our domesticated dogs. However, dogs are likely the most domesticated companion animal species there is on the planet. Dogs are very adept at being human companions and demonstrate a host of capabilities not likely found in many other species where it comes down to working well with humans. Dogs understand us, in basic terms, and elicit predictable responses to human ques and in interactions. We have bred them to be companion animals, serving a variety of needs. But, while they are no doubt supreme in this role, "raw capacity" may be a bit less than some wild counterparts in general. Breeds matter, too, as they've been manipulated for certain traits. Some could be more intelligent than other breeds and even more capable than their wild cousins.


Until we come up with a Doggie IQ Test, and decide on what canine "intelligence" is, we probably won't get a decent answer. But, in brief: It may be that wild "wolves" and canid cousins are actually "smarter" than an average domesticated dog.

Dogs are "bright" as far as domesticated animals go. They are very adept, however, with many skills a companion animal must have to work well with humans. And, that's the key takeaway - Because they're so very domesticated, we see a good bit of their full potential right in front of us. Dogs are somewhat unique among domesticated animals in that they can, in certain situations, "empathize" with humans. That doesn't mean they know how we feel if we get fired from our jobs, it means they can understand intent, commands, that we're looking at something or alerted. It's a weak doggie version of a Theory of Mind, but they can exhibit understanding. (Plenty of studies, there, but not all participants/breeds may show the same aptitude. :))

Wolves are wild animals. It's hard to judge their capacity just through observation. They can't go to the store to buy a pencil to color in the dots on a multiple choice test... But, from what I recall of what I've read/studied, dog's wild counterparts tend to be regarded as more intelligent, overall. They must coordinate, navigate, detect and make "decisions" regarding prey, enemies, mates, etc. A lot of emphasis has been placed on things like a typical wolf's pack or social structure. IMO, it's not likely as complex as some would prefer to think it is. But, the rigors they're subjected to often weed out "dumb" members fairly quickly. (Navigation is a "huge" deal, here, and implies a truckload of "intelligence" in general and wild wolves are very territorial and capable of traveling and navigating over long distances in their territory. Some dogs do that as well, too.)

But, there's really no doubt that canids of many sorts are very social creatures. If anything, just their evolutionarrily reinforced traits that are very focused on social behaviors and needs should clue us in on how important pack/social behavior is for them. Signalling, special glands for territorial signalling, visual/auditory capabilities related directly to social/pack behavior, etc. There is no reason to doubt that their evolutionarrily reinforced behaviors and even internal "minds" are similarly well focused for pack/social behavior.

But, it doesn't mean they're brilliant. :) (Sad to say, but the last study I read on making comparisons between dog and cat capacity ranked cats as a bit smarter... But, cats are considered "semi-domesticated" animals. They're not as domesticated as dogs. In short - Most cats would not wish to participate in a formal study. Dogs would, just because they love us. :))

The key difference that makes dogs appear to maybe be a bit smarter than their wild cousins is that they're fully domesticated. They exhibit the behaviors we value because if they didn't, they wouldn't be considered our animal companions. (We bred them to exhibit these behaviors and responses.) They are, IMO, as perfect a domesticated companion animal can be in terms of being fine-tuned for cohabitation with humans. They tend to "love" us. That scores big points with humans. :) (Studies have shown that, yes, your dog probably loves you in the capacity that a dog can love you.:)) In turn, we see their domesticated and long-bred behavior in its best light, most of the time.

Dog breeds matter. Some seem to be clearly more intelligent, in general, than others. Certainly, working dog breeds are bred to be able to assist in practical tasks the results of which are seen every time that task is completed. Australian Shepherds are often considered one of the "smartest" breeds. Why? They were bred to be that way. In that case, are they smarter than a wolf? Maybe. Considering that breeds have become so specialized, there is no reason to assume that their intellectual capacity is not similarly affected. So, some specific breeds may not only be unusually "intelligent" compared to wolves, but also to their fellow dogs.

Dogs are fine-tuned for social and pack behavior over bajillions of years of natural evolution. We have been mucking about with that for a bit more than 10,000 years or so, give or take. (10k is "safe," but there's evidence for much longer associations.) "Specialized" breeding is even more recent. (I recall a chart, somewhere, on the first appearances of fully specialized, domesticated, dog "breeds.") It's not easily possible to take a "generic dog" and make certain sorts of comparisons to related species - We've bred them to be different from each other.

So,m it's difficult to make species-specific generalizations between wolves and "dogs" without drilling down to examine more specific breeds. A Chihuahua is probably not generally "smarter" than a "working dog" species like an Australian Shepherd, for instance. I've nothing against Chihuahuas, but they're not "working dogs," IMO, and thus don't have a lot of focus on intellectual capacity in our breeding efforts. I'd expect them to be very much a companion breed, but not bred for more than that.


PS: A note on the OP vid - There is something wrong with that dog... Most likely, it's anxious and stir-crazy. Just an offhand judgement, but it's not likely the dog gets enough stimulation, exercise, varied outdoor activity, socialization, etc. That the dog has performed this behavior for long enough to over-develop what are normally not so abused muscles points to much more serious issues than just "cute play behavior." It wouldn't be an unusual setting for an "apartment dog," either. (Largely incompatible with most breeds without extensive human support/effort.) It's also worth noting that animals can have mental/emotional problems, too. :) So, the dog could really be just "crazy."


Wow, that was deep
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing" - Edmund Burke

Report Forum Post

Report Account:

Report Type

Additional Info